How to Break the Cycle of Injury
CJ
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Gymnazo podcast. I’m your host, CJ Kobliska, Director of programming here at Gymnazo. And we are going to be chatting with the Michael Hughes about breaking the cycle of injury and what it means to truly prevent or avoid injury. What does that really mean? And what is injury? What is pain? What does an injured state really teach us? And how can we go about approaching programming and coaching athletes who have been injured are injured, or could potentially be injured in the future.
Michael Hughes
Welcome to the Gymnazo podcast where you get to peek behind the curtains of what it takes to create and run a seven figure fitness facility that ranks in the top 5% of boutique fitness studios for revenue. But to be honest, that’s the least important thing about us. Founded by me, Michael Hughes Gymnazo has created an ecosystem of services that blend performance with restoration techniques, and attracts top coaches to its facility hosted by its owners, Paden, and myself and our top coaches, this podcast shares our best practices on everything, from how to build a sustainable fitness business, to how to program for maximum results, to how to build a hybrid training module that’s online. And in person. We have marketing secrets, movement, innovation, and breaking down trends in the industry. If you’re a fitness professional, or fitness business owner, this is where you learn how to sharpen your skills and to see maximum
CJ
results. So Michael Hughes, welcome on the podcast, my brother,
Michael Hughes
super stoked every time it’s like a revival of the day, I don’t care if it’s morning, afternoon or night, it’s just kicks it on really rock and roll about some topics that we actually started talking, you know, talking to students like, no, no, no, no, we gotta hit record, to be recorded. So this is this is a big deal, because injury, Injury Prevention, injury avoidance, whatever you want to call it. We’re talking about like a really huge chemical, biological, pathological system, that, honestly, I didn’t really get traditional study on. I didn’t go to school for and understand the pathology of the human body and how it actually functions and was several years into my career, quote, unquote, I was like, Man, I really need to understand this. Because what happens when someone’s knee actually hurts, or someone comes after PT, physical therapy, they’re like, Hey, I’m cleared to work out. I’m ready to go now. Like, what state is the biology of that soft tissue of the neural connectivity? Like, where’s it at? And what do we really do about it? Like, I think we know movement very, very well. But I think we should know more than that. And it was kind of just like, Oh, I better I better check myself here. So you know, it’s something I dove into. And actually, massage therapy school really, not really dives in, but was a great stepping stone to understand, like, what really happens when you are working with someone who’s injured. But we’re gonna talk a lot about two of what happens when you just avoid that whole whole process. So I think there’s some some some great context in here. And I’m excited to unpack this from a trainers perspective, because I don’t think it’s an indigenous have gone there. And if the if you are there, then you’re pretty cool. And you got some special stuff going on. So
CJ
off the cuff here, I mean, what is the difference between pain and injury? And I think this is a subjective thing. And there’s a there’s a hint of objectivity to it. Obviously, when you get down to X rays, MRIs, and really figuring out what’s going on in the internal structure of the tissue. As a trainer, we don’t get to see those things. We may get told what the X ray showed or what the MRI showed, and then what doctor said, but a lot of times it’s just a diagnosis. There’s no, what do you do about it? Why was this caused? Why did this happen? Sometimes it’s traumatic injury, sometimes it’s traumatic event. Other times, it’s just, I don’t know, I’ve been experiencing pain for a little bit of time. And some people experienced pain for a long period of time, we’re talking decades, compared to a few days or weeks. So I mean, when you somebody comes in with pain, discomfort, there’s no extra information from MRI or X ray. How do you kind of approach that conversation of I’m hurting here in my knee, and my back in my shoulder, in my ankle, my toe? What’s maybe the questions you ask, or the things you consider as a coach and MDM seer. Before you go into that first thing with this what we’re going to do,
Michael Hughes
yeah, that’s great question. A spin is is literally a sensation in that person’s head, that I really have to believe them. Yeah, that’s kind of my first thought. And it’s often that I think there’s a lot of practitioners or people have these like, I’m used to word complainers just to keep it simple. It’s a guy it’s not that bad. You know, at least my my high school football as it is, it’s not that bad. You know, my high school football coach was actually great. But there’s a lot of out there, it’s like, you’ll be right. Just rub some dirt on it. But a it’s like, okay, this is real to this to this person. And that’s my, that’s my first and my second thought is like, what kind of pain? So let’s put some adjectives to it. That’s really my first question. Describe it to me. Is it stabbing? Is it tingling? Is it numbing? Is it pulsating? Is that always there? Is it there right now? Or is it only when you do something a movement pattern? So I try to dive in deeper to understand what it is now honestly, do I really know the difference between a stabbing or pulsating or tingling? A little bit? So I know chemically what’s going on? No, I really don’t. But it helps me to find what they’re feeling. So I can step into their shoes a little bit more. Because I felt pain before I felt stabbing pain, I felt tingling pain, I felt throbbing pain, I felt pain that was inconsistent, consistent, burning, hot, red, and surgical pain, all those different things that are just it’s post traumatic pain, in a sense. And so if I can get into their shoes a little bit more, and then for me, I have to understand what is my role in this question? Why am I asking this question in the first place? And I have to realize that I always have a bias. Every practitioner always has a bias. I am a hammer and I look for nails. I look for movement pain, I’m going to think it’s going to be a movement related problem. Why? Because that’s my study. an acupuncturist wants to stick a needle in a mana crap actor wants to move some bones around a soft tissue therapist wants to get their hands on it, right? That’s what we do. So I have to realize that’s my scope. And I’m going to try to solve it for from that perspective. If I can’t, then I can’t. And I’m diving deeper into some, but that’s really what I’m thinking about. I try to communicate that to them. This is how I’m going to try to solve this problem. And then the next thing I look for is like, tell me, and I this is the best question it because if they can tell me the answer, I’m like, sweet, I know where to start. As it tells me when it happens. And if they say it hurts right now. So okay, great. Tell me when it amplifies. And if I can get that answer going, then it’s really off to the races. And if I can’t get that answer going, then I say, then let’s move you and do a movement assessment. And I try to, I try to make it hurt. I say that very respectful and very kindly. I basically say to them, okay, I know it hurts right now. Just standing there, and you don’t know what makes it hurt more. So I’m gonna basically and this is, this is what I say I say, I’m gonna ask you to hit your head against the wall. But I’m asked you do it very lightly. And then like what he thought was, I’m going to try to find and make it hurt. But let’s do it gently. So it doesn’t scream yet. You know, whatever the case is. And so that’s, that’s the questions that I asked. And then from there, it’s, well, hopefully my eyes can see what they need need to see what that what that part is telling me.
CJ
Yeah, I think I mean, what you said there is, is basically that you can see what’s going on, but you can’t feel what’s going on. Right? So please share with me when what you feel when you feel it, maybe how much you feel too,
Michael Hughes
right? Big time.
CJ
Level, right? You may feel it very lightly. But then when you do something, it’s like, oh, yeah, the volume goes up. And that’s kind of a hotspot, it’s like, okay, well, we got to consider transformational zones we got to consider, was it right now we use lunges as the primary source, because everybody pretty much comes in walking in standing. And so if they’re experiencing pain, there might be something that’s going on while they’re standing or lunging, that’s creating more discomfort. So understanding that, yeah, we put ourselves in their shoes, but we only put ourselves in their shoes, if they can express what it is that they’re sensing. Because if we can match what we see, with what they feel, we have a much better picture of what’s actually going on objectively. And what we use the framework of 3d maps from great Institute, the NGO lunch, post your lunch seems the ladder opposite lateral seems that rotation, opposite side rotation, that gives us the purest understanding of what’s going on, at the foot, the ankle, the knee, the hip, all the way up the spine, and every single joint essentially, in that plane of motion, right? Pure, right. And we also consider that there’s a most most ability continuum, you got a very mobile ankle, pretty stable knee, pretty mobile, hip, pretty low, stable, lower back, and then pretty mobile, thoracic spine, and working up to the shoulder blades, more stable shoulders themselves, more mobile. And so we can get a better picture of what’s being sensed against what we are actually seeing, we can figure out maybe what’s the root cause or bring us more towards that root of what’s causing that pain. The hard part though, is when somebody is in pain, all they want to do is get out of pain, no question. Give me something to get me out of this pain, whether it be some kind of pharmaceutical, right, whether it be rest, maybe it’s something more natural, whatever the case is, it’s just a matter of Understanding how can we get them out of pain in reference to their motion when they’re experiencing pain? Alright. So I think that that takes us to what when somebody is in pain, we’re talking about, maybe it’s acute, maybe it’s more chronic? How do we address that cycle of pain or injury? As a coach? How do you do it? So somebody comes in and there’s like, oh, yeah, two weeks, I’ve had some knee pain. Or I’ve had back pain for two decades. I don’t even share it anymore. Because it’s normal. Like, how do how do you think about the cycle of injury and cycle of pain? And then bringing that into conversation? Because as a coach, that’s so tough, especially if you have haven’t, like, I’m young. I’m not even 30 years old yet. And to try to experience Yeah, man, I’m not even 30 Yet, shit.
Michael Hughes
I’m sneaking towards 40. Buddy, we got you gotta catch up.
CJ
I mean, working towards working with people who are like, twice your age, in some cases, three times your age? Exactly. Yeah. I was very intimidated by that coming in. But understanding what I see as a lens of movement and more of a framework of movement, and understanding how to ask questions about somebody’s experiencing and feeling. It helps to bring this bigger picture of care I made. I’ve never experienced this with you before, but I can piece together the cycle that you’re going through. What do you see in terms of cycles of injury and pain? And maybe kind of overview of, of how you might discuss an acute versus chronic discomfort?
Michael Hughes
Yeah. And I’m gonna start with the acute phase, because I really want someone to say and I asked him, I said is has this problem been there for more than two weeks? And when they say no, I’m like, Yes. Great. Thank you, for you made my job a lot easier. Because we really didn’t haven’t had a movement patterns set in yet. You know, they can be limping, but that can go away, it just changes. So I’m really looking at, it’s a lot easier problem to solve. That’s why because I’m not trying to fix a motor pattern reset, that need that we didn’t have or reteaching of how to move a joint pattern, because that’s so used to it has been there for decades, I’ve had a guy says I’ve had lower back pain for seven years. I’m like, Okay, this guy’s been moving this way for almost a decade. I’m not going to be fixing his lower back pain. First, I’m gonna be fixing his movement patterns. First, though his compensations have that lower back pain first? Because it’s really it’s, it’s crazy. Like, I’ll say, hey, so when I’m when I’m asking someone, and the way I think about this problem is like, Okay, tell me what, when it hurts. And they’re going through their patterns? And like, gosh, that neck, I’m imagining that’s going to hurt. Like, why? Why is this person saying anything? Because they’re going through extreme range of motion. And based upon my experience, that’s probably going to hurt like, oh, no, no, no, it always hurts. I’m like, Okay, well, that’s okay. Great, thank you very much. New rules. Tell me when it hurts more. Like you said, the volume of pain and I use it, we use a one to 10 scale, very standard scale. And I say 10 is I don’t want to do that ever again. And one is I feel it in a negative way. And whatever your gut says negative, and I say, Okay, well, so it’s pretty much always a three, right? Let me know when it goes to a four. And it’s really, it’s their mindset, they’ve been living with it. I hate headaches, I will do almost anything to get rid of a headache. But my last option is take a pill, I got all my remedies, I got all my little trinkets and toys, and voodoo and data. And usually it works. Usually it works. But my last option is take a pill. So I have to connect. So we all have our own little process. So I’m thinking about if it’s chronically there, okay, we have probably chronic inflammation. Something else, it’s just and we probably have chronic stress. And we’re probably chronic mental anguish about these things. So they’re going to think about it differently. They’re going to try to hide it, they’re going to try to downplay it because that’s what they’ve done themselves. So I’m really looking at the biological from my understanding of education of what I feel responsibly ethical that I can do, but I can really get into the mental side of things not because it’s not because I’m, I’m a mental doc, because I’m the person and I can stand in their shoes and understand to their ability of them telling me and sometimes they tell me and they start breaking down crying. I’m what I’m talking about ball out tears on the floor, but they’re, they’re like, Okay, so I’m asking them to dive into something that they’ve been really putting a wall behind. Okay, so it’s really, it’s really kaki goes deep on Rogers thing about answering this question like how do you solve for something like that? Well, you solve what you can solve, and you let the rest of the environment get placed. So that assault and unravels itself. One of our great mentors says you’re never going to heal somebody. And I, I believe that I can push some energy out of my fingertips, but But yeah, I know what he’s saying, the body doesn’t itself, we put ourselves we put the body in an environment that it can heal properly. And I really believe that we can help that process go faster. And what I mean by that is we can get, we can basically make the car go down the road at its optimal pace, because we’re just moving the road bumps, we can’t make the car go faster, if the car is gonna go as fast as again, the body will heal as fast as it possibly physically can, physiologically can, excuse me, but we’re gonna remove the road bumps out of the way. And that’s how I kind of think about chronic, but most importantly, acute training as well, I want to move tissue, because if you can move tissue, I can pump blood through the tissue. And the last time I checked arteries, basically is like as like DoorDash. And the veins, that’s the trash man. If I can keep that cycle moving, I’m going to healing something faster. So movement is what I do. And last time I checked, that’s a really good way to pump blood.
CJ
Yeah, I mean, you touched on something that somebody comes in to a one on one session or an assessment session and just says like, this is how I’ve been. There’s so much involved in the mental real estate realm of pain, that those who have been in chronic pain, somebody has been in back pain for seven years, that wall has been built in the sense for those seven years, where now, there’s a lot of space taken up in your mind and your thought patterns that involves recognizing pain as part of who you are. It’s a it’s an identity. And we’ve been taught that that’s just part of life. And yeah, injury, pain is part of life. But we don’t just need to accept it. As that is the way it’s going to be, we can accept that pain and injury are part of life. But there are things that we can do about it. And to be able to see, essentially, when somebody breaks down, if it’s a, you know, I’ve been in knee pain, I’ve been in back pain and shoulder pain for so many years that it’s not just physical pain, it’s mental pain and spiritual pain, because now they can’t do things with their grandkids, their children, their peers, paying but playing rec sports, it’s kind of like, yeah, just write that off. Like, I’m not, that’s not me anymore, when really, it truly is part of your identity to want to go do those things. But the mental real estate has been taken up by that pain, or that discomfort has now overpowered and prioritize itself over what you want to do and who you actually are. And you said something about environment, it’s setting up the space for your body to heal itself. Our body knows way more than we’ll ever know, as coaches as athletes as human beings. So true, it’s so much smarter than our thoughts. Because it’s processing all the things think about, if you take a step forward, and your knee pain, when you take a right foot step forward. Everything that went into that step has already happened. You didn’t think about that you just told your right foot to go. But there’s a foot, there’s an ankle, there’s a knee, there’s a hip, there’s muscles in between, there’s nerves that have to be activated to get that foot to step forward, that have become so ingrained in how we function that is just part of who we are. And so to break through in that conversation, it really say a breakthrough, because it is a physical trauma that we’re sensing when we’re in pain, especially chronically, to break through that and just to let go. And not to hold on to that discomfort as part of who we are. But to say like, Yeah, I’ve been in this pain, and it’s really taking its toll. That’s step one is just admitting that there’s discomfort because a lot of folks don’t say that they’re in pain, they don’t want to complain, they don’t want to share those things. Because they accept it as part of who they are. To get to that step. And then to go beyond that, which is we’re going to make change, we’re going to adapt, we’re going to we’re going to grow beyond this. There’s a hard step there. Because as a coach, you have to visualize the next steps, the next piece is and where this person could go. And as a movement practitioner, Michael, what let’s say somebody isn’t that back pain, and they’re doing a lateral lunge. They’re just stepping to the side. And that back pain now exacerbates, like, are they Oh, that step exacerbates their back pain. In our mind, I think we light up we’re like, I can help you here. I can help you build a bridge from where you are right now to where you want to be. And kind of finding that gap of where you want to be as a no pain and be able to step sideways with no pain. But in their mind, I think in an athlete’s mind is not how can I get out of this? It’s just like this is what I’m dealing with. There’s like a blockade. I don’t know if there’s a question here and more commentary on what goes through your mind as a coach and as a practitioner to recognize that there’s a stepping stone out of this. What is it that you share as a coach or maybe the how you shift your communication to working somebody who’s in pain taking a step to the side when you see that? It’s not the separate the side It’s creating pain. It’s everything else that’s happening while you’re taking the step to the side, right, that you can be solved for. That could potentially be the stepping stone to get you out of this pain. Maybe not in the next few weeks, but maybe today,
Michael Hughes
even, even the next few minutes. Yeah. So the one thing I’ve realized with my own self, you know, my back’s been the quote, unquote, thrown out before, I’ve had sharp knee pain before I’ve sprained my ankle both before. And more frequently, as I’m getting more to the dad age, in a sense, you just get tight. You know, you really don’t have much your time for self care is just shared more, you share it with your kids, you share it with the cases. And when I get in pain, I first have to step in my own shoes. It’s an emotional response, I immediately touch what hurts immediately, even though I know and my 10 hour day job, is telling people not to focus on that. So I really, I really, I first say, I get you, I get you, I know your lower back hurts, I hear you. But for the next hour, whatever, I’m going to focus on where it’s coming from. And so I honestly when I have, when I’m in pretty big pain, least from the last time I was, which is your cautious COVID miss my mind, but two years ago, so I’m not going to work on myself, I’m gonna hurt you, I’m gonna hire Mitch, I’m gonna hire a cleaner, you know, I’m gonna hire someone else. Because I know I’m going to slow myself down. That’s just me personally, I want someone else to objectively look with a fresh pair of eyes. And I’m that person to that client. So I really say that, like, I’m gonna look at where it’s coming from. And they really don’t know what I’m talking about. Because they just know their back hurts, and I don’t blame them. So it’s really seeing like, Okay, if it’s that lateral step, I’m really looking again, it depends already happened. But what caused that process, and this kind of goes to this whole, this whole podcast is a cycle of what’s happening. They’re moving in a particular way. That is inefficient. Simply put, they have an attractor, well, something that we say as MDMC, or as fellows have applied federal science that is not operating the way it should. But it’s still there. It’s like someone looking at like a river running through a town but like, man, that river shouldn’t be there. It should be river should be going over there. Why is it running that direction should be going that that direction. It’s like, you can’t choose those things. The river just goes where the river goes, I’m sorry to say. But in the human body, it’s actually the path of least resistance through muscle tissue, through joints, and into movement patterns, changes all the freakin time. And the more that we do it, the more it sets in what I love about the phrase, I was actually talking to MDMC about this today. What I love about the phrase attractor well is I break down a tractor. Well, think about a tractors tire is in a well isn’t it isn’t a divot. And when you’re driving, have you ever driven off road before and you get into like a rut, it’s very hard to pull that tire to turn that tire out of that rut. And if it’s so deep, you can’t get out, you need external force to get out, come along a winch where the case is, or another car pushing you Well, that’s what I am, that’s where you are, um, that wrench on that come along on that extra power that can push that body out of that pattern that’s not moving effectively. And even though it’s doing it because it thinks it’s the best way way to do it. But it’s really not. And so it’s really that understanding that if we can understand the pattern of that person’s moving in joint by joint, the kinematic chain, for those therapists out there that are kind of looking at this, we use the word Chain Reaction biomechanics, same concept, if we can understand that process of joint by joint by joint tissue by tissue tissue, and we can unpack that and see that and see where the dysfunction is, and and solve for it before the pain registers as that foot strikes the ground and the load shoots back up into the hip as an example, then, that’s what we do. And it’s really cool. So how do you do that? Unless someone tells you about it? I think that’s the that’s the biggest question. That’s the cycle. How do you break that? Because normally, people come and ask for help when there’s a problem.
CJ
It’s too it’s too late. Yeah. It’s like later than you could have come in to solve exactly. Now it’s gonna be a little bit extra work. But it’s because you’ve spent a little extra time not thinking about
Michael Hughes
right. And we always say I will only find new
Unknown Speaker
only if I knew when I was 20 years earlier, 20 years later, right.
Michael Hughes
So going back to the cycle. So that’s the problem where it is and I think that’s the underlying issue that there’s a pattern in their movement that’s inefficient, so much so that it’s now become painful. And nothing just happens. A storm just doesn’t come out of nowhere. It’s there’s a process may come up quickly. But it’s still cycle. Plants don’t just grow, there’s a cycle everything in this principle, the world of physics and change happens with a progression. And I’m wrong on that someone can check me on that one, but I’m pretty sure I’m pretty 99%. Right about,
CJ
you can’t avoid the forces, they’re gonna they’re gonna act upon you, but they’re gonna act upon you slowly. And gravity is one of those things that can kill us, or make us live better. Or we can have a better relationship with them.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, brick world records?
CJ
Oh, yeah, I think it’s important, what you mentioned is that our bodies going to go in the path of least resistance, it’s going to pick a path that it does most often. And most of the time our body picks that path unconsciously, most of the time. Well, fair enough. We’re not thinking about it. It’s just happening in the background. And what’s happening in the background is you’re getting reps and reps and reps and sets and over time, and gravity is acting upon you that you’re going to get pulled into a specific direction. And if we’re not aware of how to audit our bodies, process of organizing, how to move, we’re going to fall into a trap of this is how I move. And that’s how I don’t move. And as soon as we get asked to move and how we don’t move, typically the places of the OSHA transformational zones, the zones that cause injury, most often those zones that we step on a divot in the grass and all sudden, who roll an ankle, or we missed a step, and all of a sudden, we got a strain, there’s a tear in the meniscus, or we went running further and we got lost and all sudden, now it’s extra strain, where our body’s gonna find a path, when we’re under fatigue, it’s going to find time to just figure it out to me, it’s gonna find a way to get the job done. That may not be the most efficient way, but it’s the way that the body found. How can we better prepare ourselves and our athletes as coaches to not fall into those biases and those attractor walls, that whether they’re efficient or not, if we keep doing that thing that one way, will pull us into a path of dysfunction? Because it’s just repetitive stress over time, without any other way of doing it. What is it that we can do to better prepare ourselves for movement for training or for those pads that we haven’t traveled across? That could cause injury? What is it that that maybe you do or you do with your athletes we do at Gymnazo that doesn’t say prevent injury, but helps us better prepare movement, so that we don’t have to fall into a trap of dysfunction or injury from somebody we overlooked. And it’s a pretty complex
Michael Hughes
matter. But I’m excited to answer it. But I have to say this, first and foremost, you cannot prevent all injury, you cannot prevent all bad things to happen. I really wish I can. I know there’s injury prevention is a huge word phrase in this industry, I get what they’re saying. But I really want to kind of put like, we I think we do a really good job of defining things, we have to have a definition. So we can all kind of have an agreement about what we’re talking about. Injury Prevention is impossible. Injury avoidance is more possible. But the thing is that it’s really the most important thing from my, my philosophy is that we’re going to do our best to avoid injury, because we can’t prevent it. But what we’re gonna do a really, really, really good job of is that when it happens, we’re going to catch it early. Because it’s not necessarily injury at that point, particularly in most cases, right. It’s a it’s an it’s a dysfunction, or it hurts a little bit right pain and pain and dysfunction today are scalable, in a sense. And we’re going to act upon it as soon as possible. And then the recovery process or the the remoulding process, in a sense is going to be what progresses even further. So to answer your question, if we don’t want to fall into traps, then we therefore must train ourselves to avoid traps. How do we do that, we’ve got to put a lot of traps in front of us and the MVC dodge them, we need to move in ways that our body says I’m accustomed to this pattern. I know what this pattern feels like. I know how to load and explode out of this pattern load and explode. It simply means the concentric and eccentric forces that I can actually hit the ground, sneak out of it or I can load this ball behind me and get it in front of me across the field in ways that honestly unfortunately may seem very very weird and very different and even at from the appearance as dangerous. But isn’t rolling an ankle a dangerous position? isn’t catching a kid who’s falling out of a slide a high up a dangerous position. I can keep going I mean I can go on for an hour just creating live situations is when do we get hurt? Sometimes we get hurt and I say this often picking up a toothbrush off the floor. You can say that’s a dangerous position. Of course not. But that’s what happens quite often to those people who are very, very, very tight in the posterior chain. Is that dangerous? No. So the spectrum is massive. So we got to that’s why that’s why we have mesas and Vipers and, and crazy little sliders on turf and rattle things that really no I do. People know what they are. And that’s why we have stretch cages that can put us in crazy different positions and MOBE sticks in open space, where we don’t fixate on a movement pattern that a machine takes us through that has a pin in it that we slide up and down. Because we have to express movement in ways that are fairly weird and common at the same time. Because if we can do that our body learns, just like any person who trains for military or for martial arts, how do you beat the the opponent? You know what they’re gonna do? Or you have seen it before, and you act upon instinct, you fall upon your training. And that’s what I’ve never been in the military, but I’ve watched a lot of movies. And that’s what they say, you just go into your training. So we’re training ourselves to act funky. That’s, that’s, that’s my answer.
CJ
Yeah, what I’m thinking about is essentially, like priming tissues or preparing tissue, so you’re always ready,
Michael Hughes
when are you going to do more detail? Yeah, I
CJ
mean, what tends to happen is our body’s just not ready for something like he hasn’t been exposed to a stimulus, and then all sudden, it’s facing that in real life, and we have to react and respond, catching the kid from the slide, grabbing your toothbrush off the ground, we’re not thinking in those times, we’re falling back on what we’ve trained. And what we’ve trained isn’t just in the gym, what we trained is what we’re doing 24 hours a day, seven days a week for our entire life since we’ve been born. And what tends to happen is as we get beyond that elementary, high school, middle school, high school age, is we stop exploring the variability and the the, I guess, more subjectivity of our experience, we become more objective and like, Okay, we’ve got this job, and I’ve got my kids to take care of, and I got to do this, this, this, and then the other, we fall into an attractor, well, that may be great for what we do in most of our life. But as soon as we go beyond that range, beyond that speed, we’re in a more chaotic environment, we’ve got to react. Now our kids are somebody’s life is on the line, we got to react in that time, have we equipped ourselves to respond in those moments and just serve? Or have we disregarded that? And now it’s the moment we got to shine? And our body’s like, what are you asking me to do? And it does, it does the task, it doesn’t effectively most of the time. But does it do it efficiently? I think most of the time, not because we’re not setting ourselves up for success with maybe our daily training, our personal practice, or just how we wake up in the morning. We’re not giving ourselves the time of day to take care of ourselves, right?
Michael Hughes
It’s that is that critical. And I want you to keep on talking because I think you have a lot to say on this one. But a quick little setup out of the park yesterday. My little girl was pushing her body to go across monkey bars. She’s never done done before. She’s at school. Now preschool, she’s trying more and I can see her failing and failing, but she’s smiling. She’s progressing her potential Varium sitting on next this this slide. And I’m like, I wonder if I could jump to that monkey bar and just fly across here about three feet and grab on and just swing. And I stood there. And I didn’t do it, there was a hesitation. Because I haven’t done it in a long time through, there’s going to get to a point if I don’t try that move, that I would say I wanted to be an option my head anymore. My body would just say that’s not something you even process as a possibility. And that’s what you just said, as we get older, we cannot lose our primal instinct to explore yes, there should be things that we set back a little bit as our bodies doesn’t have the capacity, literally. And it’s Johnson’s connective tissue could have been worn for years after years. But I’m going to go back to that park. I’m going to do it. I said to myself, I’m gonna go back to it because I realized I had the awareness that said you could do that. And I was really fascinated. You just brought that backup up to me. Because it’s really about can you do it and you said muscle, you said tissue priming. And so I think we should get into the flexibility space, the strength space, the flex the priming space, because that’s kind of new. We’re like, what does priming mean? Well, how is it different than strengthening? What’s new between flexibility and mobility? And then how does the body how can the body really do what it can do? And what tools do we use to break that cycle or to essentially facilitate a breaking of that cycle? So go for it.
CJ
Yeah, totally. There’s a lot of truth to how our body can move in space and with the physical forces around us and we can gain awareness As by just bringing our body through those positions through those tensions and through those intense those intentions. And for example, like, Okay, we know we’re living in 3d space. Physically, we know that our joints can move through the sagittal, the frontal and transverse plane. But a lot of what’s going on right now and in the history of kind of fitness is like isolating in, in bringing more of a reductionist point of view to every single joint without realizing that our body is a multitude of pieces that work together to complete a task. The cool thing is, we don’t have to consider all the pieces, we can just say, hey, hand reach over there. But what went into that hand reach, we could say, Hey, pick up something out of the car, lift it up and take it into the house. But all the inner workings that go into that are what’s most important. But if we consider those things all the time, we’re going to be very inefficient in our life and become very overwhelmed and not doing things that we want to do to enjoy life. We’re just so focused on all the individual parts. Michael does this many does this, my hip does this. And we see that in a lot of joint articulations, or cars, the the, you put yourself in a position sitting on the ground, and you lift your hip, and you take it through those internal rotations and those extra annotations and those eight reduction 10 directions and you feel the work and the strain. But are you ever teaching your body how to utilize those movements in real life, and authentic movements, like real life tasks, doing the dishes, I’m going to say just doing the dishes, but ADLs doing laundry, get into your car, brush your teeth, take a shower, get out of bed, all those things. Those are often overlooked, because it’s just part of life. But if we really break down all the pieces and take that reductionist point of view and say like, Okay, getting out of bed, requires you to swing your leg over, and then a single day balance and the listing of a balance. And then you take your gait pattern, and you open the door. So you do a poll, and you then close it, or maybe you do a push or something else or you know, you’re going through all of these fundamental movement patterns of squatting, lunging, lifting, locomoting, pushing, pulling, jumping, reaching all those is things that we can do as humans, if we’re not understanding how we how else we can do them. And we’re only doing them ways that we’re doing them. Like you said, we’re only going to think in the ways that we know how to move. And over time, we’re going to forget the ways we’ve never even thought about moving. And so now it never becomes an option. And as we decrease our options for movement, we become more ingrained into the ways that we have limited ourselves to move. This is how CJ Kobliska moves. This is how Michael Hughes moves. This is how so and so music moves. If we get locked in that we are limiting the way a human moves, we’re limiting the way we we move ourselves. So it really comes down to can we prime our mind and our body to prepare for the rest of the day, and continue to open our experience to potential versus limiting those potentials and never even considering them? Right? You consider just swinging for monkey bar? Well, maybe two years from now, like, man, you don’t even think about becoming a monkey bar, you’re just like, Can I hold myself up on the monkey bar? And then you don’t do it. And then you haven’t held yourself up on a pull up bar for now, two more years. Now you’re thinking about I can’t do that. I can’t do this. It’s not more of a potential option. It’s now I can’t and I’m limited. And now you’ve limited not only your mental body, but your physical body. So what is it that we can do priming wise? Well, it’s taking our joints to this articulations. But in function, it’s taking our life in real life.
Michael Hughes
positionings gravity force?
CJ
Yeah. So like, what is what goes into essentially a priming NNSA priming is like a warm up. It’s like preparing for movement, you’re priming the tissue, you put the primer on before you put the real paint on you priming the pump before you start the engine. It’s a primer for your body. What is it that you’re putting into a priming sequence to prepare you for what you’re about to do? And we can look at this from two perspectives, I think one is is just the lifting and the training side in a gym. Another side is life. And life there’s a lot more I don’t know, and chaos and unknown. So how do you prepare yourself for that? Well, we got to consider what are the true ways you can move? What is the potential of what you can move. And what we do I think so great is 3d maps, 3d movement analysis, performance performance systems from 3d Matt from Gray Institute, which is you’re taking your body through all the sagittal plane movements and extension and the complete opposite of that pole flexion. Now your body has the ability to understand what are the ends of that spectrum, forward and back. Then you take yourself through the lateral motions, the frontal plane, your ankle, your knee, your hip, your spine, your shoulders, your head, everything going through the frontal plane, your body has now an opportunity to recognize proprioceptively what’s going on laterally? And then to get to the transverse plane And now if we do that pure, plain wise sagittal, frontal transverse, what we have is a framework of understanding for our body to process, whatever movement happens in that day it’s primed. Rep one compared to rep five is gonna be very different. And of course, warm up from the first minute to the 10th minutes to 15 minutes will be very different. There’s a point where you hit your priming sequence or your warm proof like I’m ready. I think a lot of people haven’t experienced that, because it’s just the day to day the routine of going through the movements, which is step one, just doing the movements from doing nothing. But step two is doing a more intentionally, what is it that I’m about to do? Am I gonna go do yard work later, I’m gonna go and go for a run my taking the dogs for a walk, taking the kids to school, there’s different levels of priming, mentally and physically that go on there. But if we can pay attention to how we’re setting yourself up for more success, we’re going to experience more success. And I know I kind of went on a little rampage there of priming and warmups in 3d maps. But I really think it comes down to, we can set ourself up for more success, but we have to think about what we’re about to do, we have to actually put ourselves into the future and say, Can I set myself up to have my ankles moving better, my hips moving better, my spine moving better. So I don’t have pain to my knees, my low back, my shoulders, my neck. And that’s really what I think what it comes down to is people have a lot of pain in their knees and their low back and their shoulders that put that prevents them from going and doing the things that they want to do. Because they don’t have a primary sequence, they don’t have a way to prepare themselves. To get from beyond maybe just acute pain, go stretch out, move around a little bit, bring some heat into the tissues. And like, I feel like she’s pretty good. And now I want to go for a hike. I wanted to the ball around a little bit. I want to go swimming. I want to go work out this feels good. What do you think it is in that priming sequence that can help somebody be better set up for life? Not just working out in the gym. But you wake up in the morning? What is it that we that we can do as human beings to better serve serve better set ourselves up for success throughout the day? So those little things that happened today that we’re not thinking of that bring us into attractor walls that then prevent us from doing the things you want to do? What do you think it is that that is a simple way to go about priming for your day.
Michael Hughes
I think it really all starts and this is the biggest problem is we just don’t have the awareness. No one has taught us that physical education did this, in my experience. And I got a lot of years left to figure stuff out, doesn’t go there. We just haven’t taught our population or our children’s mindset, that movement is something that needs to be taken care of. We teach them a lot we teach them about nutrition. Tell them about our history as a nation, you know, we tell them how to prep ourselves to communicate better. We even tell ourselves and you say this often how to brush our teeth well, but do we tell them how to stretch? Well? Do we tell them how to prime movement? Well? No, we don’t because their kids nature, their their rubber, and they just bounce? No, they’re still hurting themselves. Just it’s very micro. And those things add up. And they really start to pay adding up when you’re at because they just kept adding and adding and adding and adding and adding. So I think the biggest thing is is we look at the animal animal kingdom, we look at nature, it Prime’s itself. It for the most part, you see animals stretching and preparing movement patterns after a long period of zero activity. And they do kind of the same kind of move these four legged animals do you know, they can it’s kind of a down dog kind of kind of feel if you know what I’m talking about. But I got two cats now, those things are crazy. They’re crazy. Like they live in an 1100 square foot world. They try to sneak out but they’re gonna die up on the on the road. And we know that we know the more we keep them inside, the more we have to keep them inside because they just can’t fit outside. And there’s gonna get to a point where like, I’m just gonna die anyways. So we keep them inside. They use that house like a freakin jungle gym. It’s impressive. My my couch is ruined. But other than that, they love that. And I’m like, why don’t we use this place? And it’s like, oh, God, I think we should I think we should do more often more stuff, more more movement patterns. So I think the biggest thing that we could do is a we need to have the winners that we should do something. And the priming is honestly, it’s so simple, but if you think about a hula hoop, that’s a real good prime. It’s a really good prime, just get them hips moving. And the orbital passion pattern of that is really going to take a lot of gunk Enos out of your morning. And should you start doing that now if you’ve never done it for 30 years, yeah, you can do now just go easy. You know, take it take it slow. What is the last time you really reached overhead and leaned to the right and left? Like really the good more stretch but took it north and south, east and west, clockwise and counterclockwise or what we call sagittal. Frontal and transverse, when was the last time you did that? When was the last time you actually got into a big stride stance, one foot way in front of the other one foot way back the other held on to something I don’t care, make it simple, make make it danger free in sales. When was last time you really tried to kind of push the hips apart like you’re doing this side splits don’t go crazy. was last time you did that. And I’m gonna guarantee if you do that appropriately, you’re gonna feel some stuff stretching. And you’re gonna say, Wow, that feels good. If you’re too much, because that that hurts. Yeah, because the body like everything else is a process of progression. You go too fast, you get a sunburn when you try to get laid out in the sun, right? It just follow that Metro and life and you’re gonna be, you’re gonna be fine. And I think that’s those things, but we just don’t do it. We just don’t do it. We just keep pumping and driving our car never changing its oil, never rotating the tires. And I think one it’s, we just think that’s the way it goes. And that’s not it’s never been the case. It’s never been the case. But we’ve had this kind of blue collar kind of upbringing in the world where we had to work for our livelihood. For our survival movement was part of our survival. Now it’s not. It’s not, it’s, it’s in fact,
CJ
we live very comfortably, very comfortably. I got a I got a table and a chair in every room. You think about it.
Michael Hughes
That’s true. We’re sitting down right now. Yeah, in a cozy chair. Coat, man, it’s cozy. And we just sit down very much.
Unknown Speaker
We stand up often.
Michael Hughes
We stand up most of our day, and we move most of the day. And honestly, a lot of our day is priming movement. You know what I was talking a lot about this? Like, do you need really need to work out hard every day, or even once a week? I really do not believe so as the average Joe as the average Jane, you know, I’m saying no. But we need to definitely, definitely explore movement. And we do that often. And it’s we do our warmup we do with the cooldown, we demonstrate exercises for people literally several times a day. And we explore the space, it’s way more than like a UPS driver. They’re doing kind of the same patterns over and over again, picking up the box, carrying it and putting it somewhere, we go way bigger on that one. And it’s awesome. Because I feel great. And I if I keep doing that I know, in my next lifetime, which is mean my age doubled. That’s how I kind of look at it. I’m going to be just as just as fine. And I’m going to feel pain and dysfunction along the way. Because I’m going to forget some stuff. I’m going to slip on some ice. I may get into a car crash. I hope it don’t. But what am I going to do about it? I’m going to realize that my tissue got damaged. And I’m going to go go even a step further. Because I have I won’t do this in my life. But my wife has she’s got she had she had children. She got into a child car crash. Kalina would say the same thing. Women’s pregnancies or car crashes. What do you do afterwards? You’re fine. When was the last time you get a crook as you say you’re fine. It’s like this thing’s like no, what do we do after the fact? How do we get our body back into that cycle of freedom versus holding bracing. And it’s really crazy that a lot of people who get in a car crash have good good people I’ve known nothing bad happened to them. Like a few days later, like massive headaches. lower back is all later because they’re still holding that tension of that brace.
CJ
Protection man disorderly is the body’s way of protecting itself, right? Well, we don’t know what’s going to happen we need to hold
Michael Hughes
right and if you have a tough time at home, bad relationships, unhealthy relationships, stress at work, you’re holding, you’re holding, you’re bracing. And when people say I just carry my stress and my traps. Sorry, you’re just bracing you’re holding up and yourself. You’re trapped. Yeah, exactly. I know what they’re saying. But they don’t know what they’re saying. Oh, that’s the way it is. No, that’s not the way it is. That’s
CJ
what you’re asking for a way to out of it. How do I write what’s the path out?
Michael Hughes
That’s what they’re pushing on themselves. That’s what we’re that’s where their body it’s really as it’s constantly we just don’t know. So it’s, it’s, it’s understand that we need to create the flexibility, the mobility, the strength, the conditioning, the coordination, the skill set. So big job, that’s what we have jobs 100 years ago, we our job would not exist. Maybe for someone who got ran over by an ox, you know, and they got her frightened into their glute and
CJ
more impact, injury based non impact injury
Michael Hughes
because that this whole that today sort of holding that trauma because that glute needs to repair itself. Once it does, that movement pattern needs to come come back, you know, so those things still need to be taken care of, but now we’re dealing with inactivity problems. And the world doesn’t even know it.
CJ
The cycle of injury really comes down to those reoccurring things. It’s like man, you know what I got? I got hurt doing this lift. So then I took a couple weeks off and I felt good. I went back to working out and I got hurt doing this thing that wasn’t a lift, it was just a step. And that took a couple weeks off, and I went back to this other gym. And then did this one thing that was just in a warmup and I hurt my neck. And I couldn’t turn to the right for four days. And it’s like, the cycle seems to be from what I can recognize is that people are going into into a program or into a workout style or methodology, that is asking their body to do things that they have not asked her body to do before. And then they’re going way too hot out the gate, and basically turning the volume to level 10. Without knowing what volume level two or three sounds like doing this. It’s a new stereo, you got what you got a set of speakers that level two is like one thing and you got another set, it’s like damn as loud, because it’s built for different things and different intensities and different intentions. And I think I think a big way out of that cycle of injury of like, you know what, I want to just go move and train and lift weights, I get hurt. It’s it’s so much less about that, and so much more about where is your mental state going into those things? Are you just doing that thing because you want to sign up for something new, you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into, and then the coach doesn’t know your history. And so now it’s just this constant feedback loop of help I hurt myself again, I’m gonna take my time off and rest. And then get back to when I feel better. Without realizing that you’ve may feel better, but you feel better from not doing anything. So your attractor was pulled you back into a place of dysfunction, a place of non function, a place of functioning in a seated, supine, laying down position, let’s just work on your tissues. Similar kind of thing happens with like massage therapy and chiropractic is that, you know, I’m hurting I go to the park chiropractor and massage therapist, I feel so much better leaving. But the next few days are so bad. And then I’m right back to where I was square one, or I’m worse, because nothing was retaught back into their, their neurophysiological neuro physiology and they don’t know how to move with these new ranges that the chiropractor and massage therapist set them up for. They feel better, there’s more space created, but their body doesn’t know how to move with that new space it news, it’s attractor, wells, it unfortunately
Michael Hughes
falls back. And that’s why these these modalities, they see you need to come back, come back come back, which is good, I get it. But it was so much cool, if so much better. If that chiropractor, massage therapists and movement coach formed up, said, I’m gonna just you so quickly, man, we’re gonna get you into space in a second. The soft tissue said, I’m gonna go in there, I’m gonna clean up all that tissue that pulls you those of those bones back. And the trainer says I’m going to keep it there. And that’s the trifecta. That’s what it is. It’s melting. It’s it’s molting. It’s,
CJ
it’s Let’s go. I don’t want to switch gears instead. But I think getting this more into a practical state of application for what we’ve been talking about, which is a lot about injury, and just like the pathology of it and how it happens and this endless loop. We’re kind of gotten in this endless loop. If someone does get injured in your coach, what should that coach do to help them recover and prevent that injury from occurring again?
Michael Hughes
Great, someone gets injured, and we call it a non impact injury. Right? Non impact injury, no one hits you. No one did anything to you. Your body did it to itself through its own movements. Yes, it may have been a weight in its hand accent, you know, force may have been, you know, exacerbated in a sense, but still movement injury, we need to see that person a s a p, they need not just stop. When it’s when I’m gonna say this choice as respectfully as possible. When a doctor says you’re in pain via movement, movement pain, don’t do that action anymore, or just rest. I say to myself, That’s it. That is that is a that is a D minus answer. D minus, you need to continue to move in pain free ways. That’s what they should say. And that’s that’s still a b minus answer. The eighth answer is you need to find what movements are causing that pain. And that’s our that’s our, that’s our marketplace. That’s what that’s a new niche in the marketplace that we are trying that we are filling. And we’re trying to help as many other trainers fill to the mpmc process as possible. We’re not the only ones doing it. But we’re not going to wait and sit by our sides if we’re going to push it. That’s what we need to do find out why. And the cool thing as I’ve said it before we get more movement, we get more healing, because we can push blood flow. Because when something swells, it should swell. It’s because while it’s a good thing, when it becomes a bad thing, it was there for too long. That’s why we have ice and all these things that things chronic inflammation versus acute inflammation emerged is a good thing. We want that secret as well. But we need to also get some motion back because if it was too long, then we change our movement pattern and then we’re finding a whole different animal
CJ
set of compensations Bayless, exactly a ways of figuring out your way On the pain that can create new dysfunctional patterns,
Michael Hughes
right. So the cool thing is, since we know that each joint has six pure ways of movement, formed back satisfied spin, right Spin, spin left. And we know, half those joints really don’t like to do two of the, of the three of them. They really like stable. Yeah, exactly. The knee joint doesn’t like to rotate, but it can rotate, and it should rotate appropriately. Again, we can do a whole podcast on that topic, we need to create joint patterns and make sure that tissue doesn’t get bound up in its static state of holding, protecting and healing. So if we can do that quickly, right out of the gate, then we keep the neuromuscular system alive, we keep the muscular system alive, we keep the fascial system alive, we keep everything moving great. And if let’s say it’s a surgery, we literally took a knife, and screws and pins to someone’s knee. You said it before the podcast good their upper body, knees, just keep moving as much as possible, you’re going to train every day, that in fact, I bring your wheelchair and bring whatever you got, and we’re moving you because that fascial line through that overhead press even though the knees were is going to it’s connected. And if we can do a rotational overhead press and it’s that left inside neither had a meniscus clean up, we’re still training that left knee even though we’re not moving the knee, we’re still standing there. But uh, right overhead, same side rotational press, boom, that right knees, thank thank you very much. I really appreciate you’re planting a seed way down there that I’m going to take that fruit from, when I surgically in respect the tissue wise it healed can and that’s keeping that whole process going. And we know that you know total knees total hips that are out of bed that that day, if not, then the next day, because they used to put them in bed for like two weeks. And they realize oh shit, we just caused a lot of problems.
Unknown Speaker
We got to keep that blood flow. And yes,
Michael Hughes
we got to keep the patterns moving. So it’s really cool. It’s like we need to do that from an injury standpoint right out of the gate you did a deadlift, your lower back hurt I get it seized. And it’s gonna take a few days for that to calm down that that overwhelming tightness and lower back, but still find out what you can do. And sometimes it’s very little honestly, I’ve had a like an ankle sprain. I’m seeing it the next day. You’re playing pickup soccer in an adult league massive an ankle sprain. Not surgical, but bad. As I want to see the next day. And I tested all six ranges of motion that ankle can go through and it can only do one because black and blue is bad news. But I could do one I said good. That’s where you’re starting. Give me that one pattern over and over again, not ad nauseam, equip appropriate rep rep range and rest time next day. Because honestly, man, my hurt ankles hurt hurts real bad, but actually feels a heck a lot better. And this is day two on like day two, it should be getting worse and continued worse, you know? And again, we did we do a miracle. No, but we kept the process going. So it was truly a four to six week ankle ankle sprain versus a two month and then now a 20 year ankle sprain, right. That’s like I’m ankles are just bad. I always ask someone says, Oh, I thought I’ve been ankles winterspring. Nichols High School. How many times? I can’t even count.
CJ
And that was 20 3050 years ago. Come on, like
Michael Hughes
okay, zero. I think we’re gonna do and we can still deal with it. That’s a cool thing. You’re not done the Saudis adaptable? Yes, it will it can revert back to 100%? No, do you need 100%? No.
CJ
Gotta have functional level, right, and the success success level, right. And I think that’s where the MSA is out loud. It’s where the medical field fails. As as a general field, because it’s about trying to solve for the symptoms and that discomfort and saying, just don’t go do these things. But that’s going to make things worse, because now you don’t go do those things. If you don’t use it, you lose it. If you stop using those movement patterns of those pads, you’re gonna keep losing it, and it’s going to create more dysfunction. And now sudden, that knee and back pain you had as now shoulder, neck, but other knee, my ankle. And it’s like, I don’t know what to do about this. It’s like, well, the more complex it gets, the simpler it is to fix, because it’s probably a couple of little root causes that just need to be addressed. We got to make your foundation stronger. You have trouble standing for for more than 10 minutes at a time. There’s probably something going on with your feet in your hips. When you’re just standing there. There’s nothing wrong with you. Just something wrong with the communication that’s going on here. And we can get somebody back to a higher level by focusing on where they are successful with where versus where they’re failing, right versus where it’s causing pain. Oh, it’s causing you pain when you’re running. Stop running. Okay, wait, hold on. We need to kind of dive into this a little bit better, a little bit deeper. Why is it when you’re running? Or when is it when you’re running? Or are you successful in a stride stance and you feel no pain? It’s only when you add impact. Can you learned without pain, we have success and a threshold and more of a spectrum to get you back to impact and running. But we got to know where that successes first. And I think that’s where we, as the MDMCs, can steer towards is understanding where that success exists, and where it doesn’t exist. And then we can mind that gap. And we use that success to create more success, faster, more success,
Michael Hughes
good motion produces better motion, bad motion produces worse motion. So I get people say, I want to stop doing that, I get it. But let’s say it doesn’t just spiral down to other joints. What it does spiral down to is the emotional and wellness and they’re mindful of I love running, I need running. You just took that away from me. Now I’m a bike rider. I hate bike riding, but I do it because I need health. I hear that often. Yeah, they actually listen. But they but they lost part of themselves. Last time I checked, the physical system of our body is directly integrated in every aspect to our mental state. And last time I checked, Lisa, I was told the me, the physical, the mental people that I understand and trust very well have done a lot of science and education and paid millions of dollars for this stuff over the course of time. Know that it’s tied directly to the spiritual side. And those spiritual leaders that are listened to and love to and they though it’s really tough to define it as a science that like it’s 100% completely involved. Every single person, physical, mental, soulful, whatever you call it. And when you mess up someone’s physicality, you’re messing up someone’s soulfulness. But if you can get to someone’s softness, you are directly influencing the positive change in their physicality. And we do it from physical and we see it drip. That’s what we do. But how do you do that? If I’m going to teach you a new board game? Should I let you win? Maybe the first time? Well, maybe there’s a threshold on that one, right? But should I probably teach you the rules first, so you can when you want to play again, or to just shove it down your throat over and over again? You’ll figure it out, and it just crushed you every time? Are you gonna play that game? No, universally, no adventure that person will break to why we’re doing that in physical fitness.
Unknown Speaker
He helped me man,
Michael Hughes
you know, when we got to win, not win, but we got to be successful.
CJ
Yeah, you hear a lot about like injury prevention is all about strength training. It’s like solve your weaknesses. How much truth? Do you find in that statement that we need to strength train, and you get a lot of people coming in from different walks of life, different injuries have gone through MediCal side physical therapy, and got a chiropractic and acupuncture and then sometimes we’re like the last resort. Yeah, too good. Typically, we don’t. And then times we’re not. But a lot of times you are. And we hear a similar story of like, yeah, we’ve worked on building strength. And we know that it’s not a strength issue. First, it’s a most ability issue. It’s typically an issue with mobility and stability, but not in one joint. Now the entire global function of when you’re experiencing pain and how you’re experiencing that pain, or that that injury even more so because pain can be just objective, but injury, it’s more objective, like we can see that there’s actual trauma to tissue to a bone to a muscle to attend and to ligament, whatever the cases to a nerve. What do you say to that? Like? Yeah, injury prevention is all about strength training, you just got to train train. Yet, that’s often the weakness.
Michael Hughes
The typical traditional physical therapy approach, and I think I’m being relatively fair in this is make it stronger. And what I what I think is I’m gonna say great answer, but you just put the cart before the horses. That’s not what you do. First, you have to strengthen it. I do believe that. But I’d say 90% of the people need more mobility. First, they need the they need to be able to access the range of motion that that joint can go through. So it can get stronger. Instead, they just start strengthening it. And it does work. It really does work. But it’s a it’s a partial work. It’s a limited work. It’s a it has a it’s like a it’s it’s a doesn’t last forever work. Because you can over you can make the muscles so strong that that overpowers the resisting tension. That’s somewhere else in the body. And you can solve Oh, my, my pain is gone. But what if you lose that weakness or that strength? Because you don’t do those same drills over and over and over and over again? Your pain comes back. But what if you give them some money? So that’s it, like, let’s say someone does like glute bridges? Because they have a front hip pain? or what have you just have to stretch out that hip flexor as an example. I know it’s super simple. Well, you don’t have to do glute bridges anymore because you already have the strength. If you can walk into our doors, you have enough strength. Do you want to get stronger? Well, of course, let’s take away the resistance that fascial over tightening somewhere else that’s causing an imbalance in the teeter totter.
CJ
You’re causing a tug of war and a battle within your body. Yes. Can you get rid of that tug of War yet and create
Michael Hughes
a tug of war first, then strengthen each side. That’s what happens we try to make, it’s like you’re playing tug of war and you’re the muscles trying to get stronger. But you’re playing against a rock buried deep in the ground, who’s going to win? Eventually the rock is going to win, because no muscle can outlast the time of tension. So,
CJ
but the rocks aren’t going to feel it. It’s what’s below, right? Of course, the person feels like ah, like, like, oh, the person knows the rocks. Like, doesn’t matter. I just keep settling, right?
Michael Hughes
So let’s just strengthen the person I like. I kind of say like this. Do you fix the bully? Or do you fix the kid getting picked on? Who’s yelling? The bully never yells. It’s the kid that gets picked on. He’s yelling, let’s fix him. No, no, stop the bully. That’s the thing is like, well, let’s just make the kid stronger. I think that’s I think you’re gonna go far with that. But you’re not going to solve the problem.
CJ
I love that analogy me how many times you get somebody coming in who’s got right shoulder pain, like, sometimes it’s in my left. And the last six months in my right. And you know, my right knee has been hurting. But like today, when I come in, it’s my left knee. Like, we’re working with an imbalance here. And it may not be a strength imbalance, it could be that something is too strong. And the other part is still strong. But the part that’s too strong and doesn’t know how to work with the other part that’s not strong enough, right. And now, you’ve focused on your right and you had pain so you strengthen your right glute right quadrant hamstring, right calf, but the issue was never your right knee, it was that that right knee was taking the brunt of the force, because your left side wasn’t allowing the link to occur. Maybe your right knee is in pain. Because your left anterior hip has been fighting back so much every time you step your right foot forward into a lunge. Your right knee hurts your right knee hurts. And your right knee is the kid yelling out. But your left front hip is the one bullying and saying I’m not going to help you keep doing it right knee. Keep doing it. Keep going. Like Alright, we’re gonna keep shrinking that right quad right glute, that kids like, Dude, I can’t get any stronger. This boy is just so strong. Like you can’t fight the boss. At that point. You got to understand what the boss is doing to that that kid? Yeah,
Michael Hughes
well, it’s traditional strength and does work like that the kid that peewee gets strong enough for the peewee misses two days of strength training, the bully doesn’t matter, he doesn’t have to get stronger, it’s already
Unknown Speaker
there. Take advantage if you’re fatigued, I know. It’s
Michael Hughes
really what it comes down to. That’s why That’s why it’s intermittent changes. And that’s why it does work at times. And that’s honestly 90% of the people that I’ve and this is just my quick number here. It’s not this this detailed 90% of people that come to me that need Why believe us? How have that situation that we just described, the bully is too strong, too dense, too tight, too immobile, it’s just not gonna budge. And we’re trying to do other things to compensate for it. But there is the other 10% of the time that someone is too weak, they’re too mobile, the joints don’t have enough control. And that’s where we needed strength training, almost right out, right out of the gate. And it’s also strength
CJ
training in ranges, though, that’s always a mobility and stability thing is never one or the other. It’s always both. But in terms of what spectrum,
Michael Hughes
what do you put more fort on the scale, right Mobility Suite? There’s always a scale, where do you put more rocks? That’s it. It’s really I’ve screwed up more people. Because I did not realize that second point. Everyone was too tight somewhere and therefore causing pain somewhere else. And if it was listening to that, because I’m not perfect, I tell you what, I’ve just didn’t realize I was so dogmatic in that way of thinking. That’s no people. There’s a mobility issue. People are too mobile too. And it’s not hypermobile is on double jointed. They’re just that’s, that’s how they that’s their body structure. And it’s pretty cool. Because it’s actually I’m finding it’s more of it’s, I can fine tune it more from a body structure. I can tip my thought process a little faster. If I look, it’s like, wait and wait. Okay, look at that. Right. Okay. They’re more lean and mean people. Typically, this that’s my personal thoughts. But it’s not always the case. points on all this case.
CJ
It’s tough to to figure out what’s the cause? I mean, is it mobility is a stability and to how much of an extent it’s not so obvious. You simply have to ask the questions that lead you to more understanding and there’s never one answer, there’s gonna be multiple answers. And I think that’s where a lot of movement assessments fail is that they they are great exercises and movements to like consider, but it’s not ever giving you the full picture of what’s going on, in reference to real function. But when it comes down to 3d maps, and not even just 3d maps, more of just spherical awareness, understanding that every single person comes in basically with a dome surrounding them. The ground is the base of the dome, and everywhere you can reach is another part of that dome. Like if you take your right hand out in front of you, it’s front of your dome. Above you at the top of your dome to the side of the side of your dome and then rotate, that’s the back of your dome. But then you can also expand that dome by bringing your lower body into that there’s an upper body, there’s a lower body, there’s a front of the body and back of the body, that side of the body, medial body. And then there’s the top and bottom, in terms of spiral. And Tom Meyers goes into Anatomy Trains right now with enough time to get to Mars, and the pieces of diagonals and slings and all these different ways your fashion lines attach. And when it comes down to it, it’s as a coach looking and working with an athlete, not simply telling them what they need to do, but understanding where they’ve come from knowing a history of their injuries, knowing history of their surgeries, knowing the history of discomforts and things that have popped up here and there throughout the years. And then taking them through a body audit, in a sense, the 3d maps to just give you a basic understanding at least a framework of understanding of where they currently are in a standing position. Can they lunge forward? Can they lunge back? Can they lunge side upside rotationally. And as a coach, you’re going to continue to develop your eyes for not only understanding what you’re seeing, but now how to ask the question what’s going on in the feeling, because a lot of people don’t know how to express what they’re sensing and what they’re feeling. They’re just it’s pain. But like we said, in the very beginning, there’s a lot of different ways to express pain. And sometimes, it’s so subjective, that there’s really no injury or thing that’s going on. Physically, it’s more of a mental thing, and a fear and blockade of where they could be, and a potential where they could be, they never had the right guidance to just help them explore their potential. As a kid, you didn’t go to kid, you’re not gonna tell them exactly what to do, they may follow along, but they’re gonna get bored, they’re gonna do their own damn thing. And they’re gonna know way more than what you will ever teach them because they’re going to explore their playfulness side, and the potential of their movement that maybe things you never even thought of mentally, physically and spiritually, because they’re in a stage of development. But we need to consider as coaches I think, is that we’re always in a stage of development, from adolescence, beyond that, 18 plus 30 plus 40, plus and 50 plus and 60. Plus all the way until the day we die. There’s always a stage of development, though those circumstances may change, how we address them, how we question them can help provide more variability, more opportunity and more potential to move beyond those attractor walls that pull us into more dysfunction, more pain. So Michael, if there’s any other like closing remarks, I know, we’ve been talking a little bit, kind of beyond the scope of just warm ups and cooldowns, but much more about injury and how to communicate when somebody is experiencing pain. Um, is there any closing remarks that you want coaches to consider to think about as they work with their clients, and they work with themselves going through discomfort, things to question things to look deeper into, that can help them become more successful with their clients, but also with their own movement practice?
Michael Hughes
Yeah, we’re still in the technological age of the movement, that the physique training, bodybuilding is fitness. And I want to say this right now, very clearly, that is not fitness, that is physique training, not good or bad, just that that’s what they are. Being looking good. Having muscles that are that are that are well shaped, is not fitness. And we should not define it as that you’re not fit, you look good, good job, you’ve done the work, it’s a hard work. It’s not how the body is meant to move. So therefore, if you’re going to train that way, if you’re going to put clients that way, if your intention is to become fit by looking fit, then you’re then there’s a gap. And you got to fill that gap. Because you’re gonna have the mindset that you’re fit. You put in the hours in the gym, you’ve ran that treadmill, you hit that leg extension machine, you’ve done the curls, you’ve done the bench press, and you’re gonna go do something and you’d be like, shocked. Why did that hurt? Why am I not good at that I work out, I take care of myself. The answer is you do, but you’re not in the right way. And that’s really tough to hear. Gosh, I even almost didn’t say it. But it’s you’re not doing in the full picture. You’re really good at one thing that you need to be good at more things, and you can still look good doing it. But explore that. And unfortunately, you look at all the magazines and all the racks and all the things you look at it’s all about physique training, physique training. That’s, we had to break that cycle, guys, we got to break it. I’m not saying don’t do that. But that is a Avenue. And that’s not certainly not the avenue that we need to approach as a global fitness community. So grab your pitchfork. Let’s go and revolutionize things.
CJ
There’s something that Aubrey Marcus says and he’s actually got a group it’s called fit for service. Strike. He does your fitness is your ability to serve. And if there’s some way you cannot serve physically, that’s where you can train towards. You can work to be fit for service. And so I think for each and every one of us, I think there’s nothing wrong with aesthetic training. In fact, I want to I want good biceps I want, I want some toned quads and some good looking calves. But I also know that I want people to help people, I want people to serve my people, I want to be able to serve people who are not the same as me, who are older than me who have injuries, who are struggling with things. And so if you’re a coach out there who’s wanting to be fit for service, and to help those athletes who are struggling, who’ve been told not to run anymore, and they stopped running, they went to biking. Those people who have been told to stop biking, and now they’re just rowing, or to go just do their pool workouts that are aquatics, there’s nothing wrong with any of those things. But for those people that you serve, that are wanting to get back to the things that they love, we’ve got to consider what it is that is the gap between where those people are and where they would like to be. And also for ourselves, where are we currently? And where is it that we want to be. And it’s not about getting to that A to B, it’s about the process of getting there. And that’s where we can start to serve and help others with their process as well. It’s tough, getting to be as cool. But the process to get there is usually rough for a process from effort in movement to effortless movement takes effort to get your motion to feel free and easy and graceful and beautiful. takes effort. And in that process, you find the beauty you find that service, you find that that connection with yourself. So for those those you that are listening, define for yourself, what does it means to be fit for service? And thank you, Aubrey for putting that. Putting that quote out there. Yeah, that service out there for the
Michael Hughes
good one. All right. Thanks very much. That was fun.
CJ
Yeah, thanks us. Always good conversation, right, I’m sure we’ll dive deeper into breaking the cycle of injury and what it means to be injured versus to be in pain. And there’ll be many, many more conversations about I’m sure what we talked about today, because of what you guys share with us. So thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you Hughes for popping on. And until next time, peace out yo.
Michael Hughes
Cheers y’all. I hope you guys enjoyed today’s episode. And if you did, please share with your fitness obsessed friends and peers who are also navigating this world of fitness and trying to succeed the trends and misinformation. As you guys can see this podcast is basically a masterclass for trainers wanting to level up in their coaching skills, and their fitness business model. We launched this in 2020. Because you and your fitness tribe deserve to see an unfiltered look at all the aspects of what it takes to stand out as a next generation coach, and build a successful fitness business. So share it far and wide. And please, when you do do me a favor, take a screenshot of this screen and share it to your social media accounts and use the hashtag Gymnazo podcast that’s hashtag Gymnazo podcast that way we can see you and share your posts with our audience. And finally, when you’re ready to go to the next level as a coach or in your business, and to reach more people, please go check out gymnazoedu.com. We have put together the best 90 Day coaching program on the market for trainers wanting to become a masterful practitioner and build a business that gives them the freedom and impact. So let us help you do just that. We have online training and one on one coaching to guide you through a full 90 Day certification. We even get you training our clients live because it’s always better to work out your kinks on someone else’s clients than yours. But we promise you this, your clients will be blown away by the transformation our program will help you make you’ll be masterful at a whole new level and part of an incredible community of coaches worldwide, taking their skills to the next level. So if you thought today’s episode had some fire to it, and inspires you to take action, wait until you see what we deliver on this program. So just go to gymnazoedu.com. And we’ll see you on the other side. Remember that turning your passion for fitness into transformation and sustainable business is critical to reaching the people and lives you were put on earth to help it matters and truly can make an impact in other people’s lives. So hope you do that. Keep sharing a passion and we’ll talk to you soon
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