The Science & Benefits of Minimalist Shoes with Asher Clark of VIVOBAREFOOT and CJ Kobliska

Posted on December 9, 2022

CJ
All right, what’s happening y’all welcome back to the Gymnazo podcast. I’ve got Asher Clark saying that right Asher Clark, with us here today.

Asher
That’s right. Yeah. Hello. Hello, right.

CJ
Co Founder of Vivo Barefoot. Super stoked for this conversation man. I think I started wearing Vivos about four, four or five years ago, when I first started dabbling in like intentional minimalist footwear. And since then we’ve put them on all of our coaches feet, and they swear by him, it’s like the only thing they wear now, I think up to like 15 or 20 pairs. It’s ridiculous. I have a whole closet dedicated to open space. And then I’ll Oh, it’s true. It’s like an addiction, if they’ve been so right. So I’m looking forward to hearing about how you guys started vivo barefoot. I think it started back in the early 2000s. And just kind of your journey into into shoemaking it sounds like you’ve been you’ve been at it for a bit

Asher
yeah, I mean, you know, I’m actually I’m I’m originally from the from the from the Clarks shoe family, seventh generation. But didn’t didn’t didn’t grow up on the factory floor if you like my dad was never in the business. So we often laugh about how I became a Shoe Dog. I don’t know if I’m a Shoe Dog yet. Maybe. I guess it was kind of in my genes or skipped a couple of generations. But so yeah, I mean, I got I got into shoes, like, around 20. When was it? Yeah, like 2022 No, sorry. 22,002 Wow, chose Aldemar 2000. and T which is long time ago now went to London College of Fashion did the product design for the fashion industry majored in shoes. And it did just a penny dropped, you know, I was into I was as a as a kid, I was always in a sport and skateboarding and that kind of like intersection of performance and functionality. And she’s kind of seemed to tick that box. So yeah, went on a big went on a big shoe journey in fashion and sports and kind of really learned my trade as a as a designer working as a freelancer for lots of different brands. Meanwhile, if we can probably go back there, but skip forward to how vivo started vivo. Vivo barefoot, you know, actually isn’t a new idea. You could say it’s, you know, hundreds of 1000s of years old because all we’re trying to do is make as little shear as possible because, you know, your feet have all the technology you need, which we will also touch on. But it was actually the the concept came from a childhood friend of my business partner and my cousin and the CEO of vivo Gallagher Clark. And the guy was called Tim Brennan. He was at the Royal College which is a famous art and design College in London. And he was a tennis player actually, his dad was Alexander Technique teacher and Tim kept twist his ankle so he was wearing is built up traditional cushy sneakers, you know that we were born and raised on through the 80s and all the fancy underfoot technology. And he just kept he just in his lateral tennis game, he just kept rolling his ankle off the top of off the top of the top of the sole there. So the very first pair of Vivos was when he took a bread knife to the bottom of his his I won’t mention the brand. But he took a bread knife to the bottom of one of the big four brands took the soul off stitched on a tennis racket cover. And there were the first vivos so effectively a sneaker with a very, very thin so he took the crazy idea to my equally crazy cousin he thought it was an amazing idea. And the first pair of vivos was was was a basically the shape of his feet. It had a zip around the upper because you had to zip the soles off and on and off because they kept wearing out in tight. Yeah, man, they were a second skin. And that’s when it actually started in 2004. It kind of it kind of bubbled along as a bit of a side project and we I didn’t actually probably get involved at about five years, five years later and it was you know, instinctively we grew up down in South Devon kind of kicking around and on the beach when your kids were bare feet. So instinctively it felt right. And and that’s really where the very long journey began.

CJ
That’s wild to think about just slicing up a bottom of a shoe and putting on a on a tennis tennis right cover how to work out all this is the right idea, we got to dive deep into this.

Asher
Yeah, so he kind of, he realized, so you probably know a bit about the Alexander Technique, but it’s very kind of postural kind of based, foundational base kind of practice. And he kind of then realized it was having a significant effect. And it felt right, a deep dive into it. And so the first thing he, he was looking at was was, your feet have exactly the same amount of nerve endings in as your hands, your feet are made to feel your hands are made to feel? And and your brain needs all of that information for a reason, right? It’s part of the proprioceptive system, proprioceptive system. And, you know, with kinematics and kinetics, shapes and forces, when your brain gets all that information, it knows where to put everything in the right place. So you don’t so it’s efficient, and you don’t get injury. So he kind of did some of that early research. And then came up with some Picky picky shoes. And, and, and, and yeah, that was it. It was it was no one knew how profound it was at the time. But you know, now there’s about 90 people in our business, getting up early and going to bed late. Thinking about it, dreaming about it, and trying to change the shoe industry.

CJ
Yeah, I love I love the message you guys send to it’s about like reclaiming your feet, you know, so putting him into this giant glove or this giant coffin and saying, we’ll see you never, you know, this is weird thing with feet, people put your feet away, especially in America. I don’t know about you guys. But you get your feet show. Yeah. And you’re not at the beach, you know, you’re just walking around town, or you’re at the park or something. And he sees your feet like, Oh, get it get something on top of those. You guys face a lot of that with, you know, yeah. And the creation of vivo?

Asher
Yeah, I mean, look, it’s the, you know, the unfashionable foot, right. I mean, you know, for there’s, there’s a handful of reasons why we think that she’s became shoe shaped and not foot shaped. But but you know, when when modern. You know, when modern urban humans of which we all are, grew up, you know, we were used to these nice symmetrical kind of shapes. And when you pick them up, and you look down, and you kind of it’s that kind of cultural kind of cognitive dissonance. So, you know, you want a nice, thin symmetrical looking shape, but actually, a healthy functioning foot is far from it. So yeah, we’ve got in the West, we do have a bit of a weird thing about feet. And, and it makes it challenging, right, the, to make wide, flat foot shaped shoes. appeal to people, particularly with, particularly with women, honestly, and or kind of fashionistas, originally, but but now we’re moving, you know, fast into a kind of space of the importance of health and well being and comfort, and all of that good stuff. It’s, um, you know, optimizing personal performance and things like that, it’s definitely an easier conversation or an easier thing to kind of put, get people’s head around, right?

CJ
Yeah, I work on a lot of people’s feet pretty much every single day, you know, hey, take your shoes off, and I can take the shoes off, what do you want to see like, Well, can I see your feet so I can tell you how the rest of your body is going to end up working together? And a lot of times, it’s kind of this click of confusion of like, why are you going to look at my feet, and you know, they’ve got back problems or shoulder problems or knee stuff going on. You know, a lot of times somebody has some foot stuff too, like plantar fasciitis, or bunions or heel spurs, things that just build up over time. And a lot of times, when we don’t have a foot issue, we’re thinking, it’s like, Oh, my back is our low back or shoulder as our shoulder, we need exercises to fix these things, when it really comes down to the foundation that could be the root of the issue.

Asher
Yeah, it’s amazing. And it’s an amazing point that I mean is is is that when you have a shoulder issue, when you’ve got an arm issue, or if you’ve had your arm in a cast or whatever the you know, it’s not uncommon train of thought to go right, I’ve got to re mobilize this, I’ve got to rebuild it, I got to rehab that part of my body but the the reality as you well know is that feet are the foundation of that whole kinetic chain in the movement. And so if you’ve got weak ill adapted feet at a foundational level then you’re gonna get problems further up the chain, but it’s something that is is really new to people you know, and you encounter that every day when people when when you ask people to take the shoes off and you look at they probably look at you like you’ve got some kind of weird foot fetish.

CJ
I do. I do have a foot fetish. Now, I love what it does. It feels so much about somebody’s movement and you know if somebody’s got poor mood men typically they’ve got some poor foot health because a lot of our movement takes place when we’re upright when we’re standing or squatting down or lunging for something reaching for something. And a lot of times we find that once you’ve got a healthy foundational foot established, it turns into a healthy movement, which then is that happy person and a healthy person that turns into a healthy happy community because everybody’s moving better and feeling better and started with a lot of times starts with their feet. So wanted to thank you, I mean, thank you guys over vivo, because it’s made our job a lot more fun, and opened up a lot of conversations about anatomy and physiology and not just treating you know that one to two hours in the gym as you’re training. But now they leave the gym and they’re vivo barefoot, and they’re go they’re getting extra reps, you know, every step becomes a rep towards more sustainability or longevity and, ultimately, vitality and they’re in their life. And it’s, it really does come down to that every step is a is a rep and with a poor step, you’ve got poor poor reps.

Asher
The Yeah, no, I love that too, you know, it’s like, Is that you, there’s the gym, it’s the gym in, you know, the gym and your shoe, you know, when you step off the yoga mat, or when you step out of training, you know, if you’re wearing the right shoes, or if you’re wearing no shoes, there’s no reason why, you know, your feet are always going to be stronger, healthier and better shape, the less crap you put around them.

CJ
It’s such a weird thought, you know, all the other research seems to I don’t even know if there is real research that shows that, you know, wearing cushions or pattern shoes actually leads to less injury, I think it’s actually the opposite now that we’re getting more and more studies, looking at minimalist style training. What do you say to people who are like, how am I you know, my doctor, my health professional said I need to wear orthotics or arch supports, and I need to have as much cushion to support my feet because of my my Bunions are because of my my ankle pain. What do you say to somebody like that? Yeah,

Asher
I mean, it’s good. I mean, there is, in fact, a lot of as a growing body of research in in the opposite direction. And we kind of joked the other day, that kind of, you know, if you’re putting 2 million years of evolution up against 50 years of, of shoe design, like frankly, the best bit of technology that ever went in a shoe was a foot, right. And it’s pretty hard to to kind of, to kind of argue with that. So if anyone should be proving the point, it should be coming from the padded kind of, you know, underfoot technology world. So what do I say to that? I mean, the The truth is, is is is first principles, you know, is, is, is, and frankly, we’re moving into that health and wellness space, where we will take in charge of our own health, and the foundation of that kind of thinking is pretty first principle stuff is, the more natural, you do stuff, it tends to be better from a foundation perspective, sleeping with in circadian rhythm, you know, being less stress spending time, more time in nature, eating seasonally, etc, etc. You know, we’ve we were effectively very, we’re the same body that we were, you know, many, many, many, many, many, many, many generations ago, right? So we’re actually quite an old school, kind of, kind of body. So yeah, we should be doing stuff just a bit more natural way. So, look, there’s no secret sauce in the shoe. All we’re saying is take your shoes off, right? And it’s, and it’s hard to argue with strong healthy feet, whatever you were on game day or on the marathon to get your 4% or whatever it is, you know, strong found that strong foundation to all of that is a tough one to argue with. And you can go and check out the science.

CJ
Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty rare to hear. You said something to you about, you know, whatever you whatever you tell on game day, what do you mean by that, like, when your whatever shoe you put on to get that extra bit of performance boost? Go do it. But without a strong foundation, you may not even the full benefits. Yeah,

Asher
I mean, I would just say the most important thing is the thing you do most of the time. So like, it’s okay to have a beer from time to time. It’s okay to wear high heels if it makes, you know, out out on a Saturday evening, if that’s what you want to do. It’s okay to drink sugary drinks and sneak a chocolate bar and all of that sort of stuff, but it’s what you do the majority of the time that the foundational stuff that is important. So it’s the same thing with with with footwear, in my opinion, and does dirt do these kind of the mechanical doping shoes that everyone’s talking about now make you run a bit faster? I don’t know maybe they do. But they definitely don’t make your they definitely don’t set your feet up to be stronger and healthier. And that’s a fact. Um, so do are there too, you know with with standing is one body way walking to running is three? Is thing our sports like basketball and skateboarding? Do they require a bit extra padding and support? Probably yes. Because they’re not natural. So my kind of point around game day or race day is, you know, without even having to enter into that conversation of is that exactly the right footwear or not in that we can go down that rabbit hole if you like. The Yeah, the most important thing is what you’re doing most of the time.

CJ
That’s powerful. I mean, oh, yeah, I think so, you know, we’ve got 24 hours in a day. And let’s say six to eight of them were sleeping, and then maybe an hour to two, you’re at the gym training, like intentionally to, let’s say you’re building muscle or getting better coordination, balance, whatever it is that you’re working on in the gym, and then we’ve got this other, you know, 14 14 15 hours of potential training time. And it doesn’t need to be you know, specific lifts or specific exercises that you’re doing, it can be as simple as just putting your body through those extra reps, or the extra time in natural movement. And if we’re locked away, like in a, in a coffin shoe, or something that’s got a lot of padding where your foots not doing something natural, it would seem that your foot would be getting weaker over time, where you would need to go towards more of a, of a padded shoe or something that gives you more support because your foot keeps getting weaker. So you need to get more and more padding on that’s where you run into a lot of trouble is, you know, individuals that are saying like, this is the shoe that my dog, my doctor recommended to me and it feels really comfortable. Without realizing, you know, the the long term effects, you know, what happens five or 10 years down the road. Now that your feet have gotten weaker, atrophied when it could have been a time where you continue to stimulate natural movement, that natural cycle

Asher
100% 100% And it’s like your feet, and your body, adapt to the environment, you put them in. And, and weaken as a result. So you know, the truth is, is we’ll spend too much time sitting in chairs and we’ll spend a bit too much time wearing wearing shoe shaped footwear. And so as a result, our feet are weak and she shaped and as a result, our bodies are pretty weak and chair shaped. So we got to, we got to snap out of that get get get our kind of core strength back, have nice, upright and alert posture, beautiful, healthy feet. And we can run and move kind of, you know, long into later life. So that those stats, you know, there’s like 70, or 80% of recreational runners suffer from some kind of injury, which is bananas, right? Like because we’re, if you read if you read the, you know, Daniel Lieberman’s kind of seminal paper, you know, we are or you read the book and read the paper, then then then, you know, humans are born to run, you know, we are perfect, upright, running specimens. So the fact that we get a something wrong there, if we’re all getting injured, doing what we’re kind of designed to do. So

CJ
it’s a wild statement to say where you are born to run, and then it’s easy to write off and say, Oh, you’re born to run until you’re 50. And then as soon as you hit 50, all of a sudden, there’s like this chronic pain spectrum that is just expected when we can shift that, that status quo of you know, why do we get chronic pain it’s not because we’re aging, it’s because we’re, we’re being ineffective in our in our training methods or in our movement methods. And it really comes down to just providing opportunities to be in that environment made me think of something because my foots definitely changed shape. And I used to wear a lot of converse and like nike freeze and boots, and my pointy boots, you know, I got lined dancin, or be working out in the yard and being wearing boots that just, it’s already got a lot of support to it. It’s got a little heel lift to it and your foot doesn’t move in that thing you feel really solid. And now I can’t fit into those anymore literature to put my foot into them their day. Yeah. And it was like, well, these these are no good and it wasn’t even comfortable. It was like my foot had gone from, you know, toes that were stuck together. I spent a lot of time barefoot so it wasn’t they weren’t a big bunch of big issues but my foot went into this spacey spacey realm but now they only fit right into in a minimalist footwear. I was talking to a to a kid that we coach some young uns, you know, between the ages of eight to eight to 12 and they looked down at my feet and they’re like you got some weird shoes on what are those? And I looked down at theirs and I said the same thing back to him. I was like, well your foot looks like this like cylinder or like this little triangular cylinder and they’re looking at mine that looked like a clubfoot or something or just something so wide and it made me think of like it really does start with our our kids right starts with the young age and the foundation being set You guys actually have kids footwear? Have you guys always sold kids footwear?

Asher
Yeah, I mean, we’ve if I’m honest, it’s been it’s always been a bit of a crazy business model from a kind of a shoe business or we like we like to call shoes the bad guy. So we call what we do footwear. But But yeah, so we’ve always had a bit of a crazy business model because most shoe businesses go we’re like, you know, you’re either a trail shoe brand or you’re a kind of, you’re a gym shoe or you’re a kind of running shoe or whatever but but obviously barefoot is a category in itself. So when you when you drink the Kool Aid and you know you believe in the importance of it, we were like well, you know, as you say, it starts with starts that a lifetime of, of wearing shoes obviously starts dying, it starts when you’re younger, right? It starts when you’re a kid. And kids kids feet are actually kind of 70% cartilage until their formative years. So that literally kind of plastic so or like, like plasticine so you if they literally kind of do take the shape of, of what you put them in, you know, if you think of the Chinese foot binding when?

CJ
Oh, yeah, it seems. Yeah,

Asher
it’s insane. So it’s like, they were literally buying the shoes and they kind of become, you know, they bind the feet. And then ultimately, they broke the arches is pretty harsh. It was a kind of cultural thing kind of born out of having small feet was considered kind of very regal and prestige.

CJ
Not only little feat, it was like him, like disproportionally like you could use it right.

Asher
And actually, I think like some of the some of the early kind of trends of dysfunctional footwear, where I think born out of the kind of the the layers of society are the upper echelons of society that because if you could wear crazy shoes, like with long toes and on massive and in crazy shape hills, and it kind of meant that you didn’t have to, you know, work the land, you know, you didn’t have Yeah, you know, you had people doing your stuff, because you could just tuck around your kind of big mansion. And absolutely ridiculous. sounds absolutely ridiculous. And, you know, I’m sure they thought that at the time, but yeah, so kids, it’s frankly, a public health scandal, right. Because, because, you know, making, you know, making shoes that are fundamentally affecting or making anything that fundamentally affects kids health. You know, we may make any parent parent kind of turn white. But yeah, you know, feet, you know, 98 99% of feet are born. Perfect. You know, Bunions are not hereditary. Most foot conditions are not hereditary, hereditary, they’re, they’re caused by shears. There may be hereditary kind of kind of likelihoods to it happening more. But But yeah, kids amazing feet, leave them as barefoot as possible. I remember when my son was one or two, I’ve got this beautiful video of him running along the poolside like on really hard concrete, you know, leaning right into it. And it’s like a slow motion video on my iPhone camera. And you just see the feet land and the toe splay. And just everyday working beautifully. So yeah,

CJ
he’s got the technologies built within us, right? We just inhibited over time.

Asher
Yes.

CJ
Well, I mean, it’s you guys in the footwear compared to like a shoe industry, it seems like the shoe industry is still scared shitless of a barefoot or minimalist training, you go into any, pretty much any shoe store, and you’re not going to find you might find one minimalist shoe that’s kind of off to the side. And it’s not really just kind of an off. Got a little more minimalist feel to it. But it seems that, you know, you go into a shoe store or something that knows a lot about feet, let’s say and they put you over a pressure sensor and go, Oh, you’re over supinated or over protonated this the best shoe for you for your foot? It seems it seems so right when you’re in that moment of like, oh, this person’s assessing my foot and putting me in the right shoe that’s based on what my my foot looks like. When it really seems that it’s kind of be going more and more backwards in the sense that your foot is going to become more dysfunctional, the more you put it into a shoe that’s holding your foot into that position, versus letting it going through its natural natural flow is deal with that a lot with the shoe industry saying like, No, you’re still wrong, even with all the research that’s out.

Asher
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, we’re, we’re a small challenger brand, kind of, you know, trying to challenge the industry in our own way. I mean, like, it’s a bit of a vicious circle there, right, because we’re arguably you know, the, I don’t think there’s any kind of, there’s not any kind of malicious intent. It’s and if you watch you spirity. if You watch you spirity in which is a video that we kind of CO created in a it’s almost like a trailer with with the idea was that we’d get we try and inspire a project issue out there to make a fully independent one. But it’s, it’s got a lot of independent, big, big done scientists in biomechanics and stuff that are on the Barefoot train. But, you know, and Dan Lieberman there says that we’re arguably, you know, trying to fix a problem that she’s caused in the first place. And, and, and there’s something interesting kind of about that statement and I don’t think that there’s any malice involved there not like, it’s we’re just trying to that we’ve gone down this road and we’re just trying to fix it, fix it and make this perfect shoe. But the reality is, is the firt is already good, it’s fine, right? It actually does get biomechanically or challenged later down the line. But but you can, in many cases, kind of reverse that damage, but it’s not a silver bullet, you know, you got to get there, the light bulbs got to go off, and then you’ve just got to go okay, right, step out issues, take your time walk before you can run, let gravity do its thing, stand up on your desk, don’t sit down, and start to kind of let all these natural, the natural three kinds of systems kick into place.

CJ
Yeah, it’s kind of like a lack of or a loss of common sense and literally meaning sense of like feeling your feet, I have so many people that get scared of taking off their shoes, because the shoes are their support like that is their lifeline without the shoes, they cannot move like get my shoe back on, I’m gonna throw it back on it. It really is a leap of faith initially, when you put yourself through years and years and years of more and more dysfunction. And things start rising up and you get to the health care system. And like I said, you know, your lower back pain, oh, we got to fix your lower back or your shoulder we got to fix your shoulder without analyzing this person for who they are and empowering them to make a choice and to understand like all their habits and routines and lifestyle choices have brought them to this point. There’s simple little things like just taking off your shoes and going and walking around your yard every day or take your shoes off when you’re sitting at your desk. You don’t have to really just stand up at your desk just take them off and let your feet breathe so they’re not being so compressed that’s so powerful in that in the messaging to put the power back into the individuals hands that humans hands versus that authority figure telling you don’t do this don’t do that. Avoid this avoid that don’t go running anymore if it hurts you versus let’s take steps to get you to where you want to be

Asher
no big time yeah I mean we live we do live in a bit of a kind of silver bullet kind of mentality of the you know why you know you got a headache take a pill your your knees injured put on a brace, you’re running wrong, here’s a perfect shoe Do you know I mean but so but but I do believe we’re starting pick that kind of mentality now where he was saying earlier in the conversation you know, if you’ve got a if you’ve got a back problem or a sore neck or cranky shoulder or something, there’s usually some further down the chain that’s kind of this caused that but you know, it’s like it’s it’s pretty simple stuff at the end of the day, like I get it. It’s tough to think that the the some of the biggest sexiest footwear brands in the world are kind of not getting it quite right. So it’s just tough to kind of get over that. That space. But ultimately, at the end of the day, you take your shoes off. It feels great. And that’s all we’re talking about here. Right? Just taking your shoes off. Feels good. You run around on the beach, you don’t need them you where you are you go shoeless on holiday. You know, you don’t you don’t kind of you don’t miss them at all. And simple. We think about it. You really quite like it. It’s that simple. Yeah.

CJ
Yeah. Who would have guessed? You know, take off your shoes to fix your feet. versus putting it in our sport? Yeah. What do you what would you say to somebody who’s in there? Like they’ve never done minimalist before they rarely spend time barefoot. They’re in their 50s 40s 50s 60s and experiencing a lot of discomfort especially in their feet. And they’re hearing this How would you how would you have them transition? If they were interested in going about this? Would you say no, stay clear of it. Or hey, take little steps what’s uh, what’s kind of a stepping stone way to to get into that healthy healthy foot?

Asher
Yeah, I mean, the you know, it’s the classic you got to walk before you can run and you got to stand before you can walk. And and the truth is, is kind of how long is a piece of string. There’s not like a magic six week program to kind of transition. The main thing is is getting is getting out of your shoes starting by just standing standing and walking and letting gravity do its thing you’ve got. You’ve got three kinds of systems within your body. You got the nervous system, which is obviously all the nerve endings and the point we were talking about in terms of the sensory feedback loop, feeling the ground and gauging your nerve receptors for the first time getting that connection, kind of go and again, you’ve got your mind muscles and tendons which are literally like your natural, your natural spring shock absorption and elastic recoil, right? So if you’ve had arch support, one of your, one of your major shock absorbers is your plantar fascia underneath your arches. So if you’ve had arch support, then all of that is weak. If your heels have been up in the air, then your your Achilles tendon is usually a little bit shorter. So you’ve got to take time for these systems to get back into place and, and functioning again, right? When you talk about things like Morton’s toe or kind of big foot deformities, it can, the truth is it can get a bit more complicated like Don’t, don’t, don’t go out running, don’t go and do a 10 mile away, swear by. First of all, three shoes away, everything will be fine. So let just take your time we’ve got we’ve got really good resources, I’m going to plug the website now vivo barefoot.com Go there, we won’t sell you a shoe, you don’t need them. Just take your shoes off. And there’s really good resources there. But yeah, Stan, walk, run, practice your squat, which is all about kind of ankle and hip hip mobility, which is key to kind of natural movement, and standing, walking, squatting, and kind of getting everything back in shape and lots of air between those toes.

CJ
That’s one of them in a shoe cupboard saying don’t don’t put shoes on. Take a dig. Yeah, and we I mean, we talked to our clients, a lot people who are transitioning into this, you know, they’re like, alright, is this right for me and was like, yeah, it’s just don’t try them on, go figure it out. And, you know, there’s not a perfect stepping stone away of step one, step two, step three is just start feeling your body. And as soon as you start throwing them on, you’re going to experience discomfort if you’re not used to being barefoot, right? It’s not a just an easy Oh, I throw them on my foot strong, you’ve got to just like with any muscle, or any any movement, you’ve got to strength train it, you’ve got to put the reps in and knowing that it’s gonna be a little uncomfortable and saying, All right, I’ve got my old pair of shoes, I got my my V bows, it’s okay to go back to their shoes if you’re feeling a bit uncomfortable, but keep transferring into those new new kicks or go barefoot more and more often. And over time, your body will adapt, you actually will feel your toes spread out, you will feel the ground beneath your feet. And it almost becomes like a a game where you get to play with the ground, right, you get to sense all these different angulations like you had mentioned earlier, tennis player who had been missing some of that lateral motion, we see a lot of people coming in with big clunky shoes, and we do a lateral lunge or a rotational shuffle. And they like they’re afraid of tipping over because their shoes, so they’re so high up that it just tilts and they feel like you’re gonna roll an ankle versus just cut the bottom out and, and fill your foot. And

Asher
it’s kind of mindful movement, you could say because obviously, it’s about connecting to your movement, which is tough to do when you’re missing one of your major movement sensors, which is your feet. And so you’re connecting to your feet, feeling feeling the weight distribution and your feet, getting a nice upright posture, just when you’re standing and waiting for a bus or waiting in the bank, queue or, or whatever. But just when you’re standing, just feel your posture nice and straight. Feel where your weight is that it’s not too far back on your Hill, it’s not too far back on your toes that your big toes are engaged. It’s the big toe and the ball of your foot, your kind of major anchor and pivot point. So just getting that big toe back in the game, getting this toe splayed. And just really being aware of just just standing technique. And then you can and that’s fun, that’s a nice kind of a kind of, like kind of process into, into a new way of into a new way of moving and you’re going to experience all that cool stuff, you know, like you’re going to be feeling the ground in a way that is this totally new. And it’s a cool process. And as your feet adapt, it gets better. And the fatty tissue and the soles of your feet kind of get stronger and everything gets back to your supernatural.

CJ
Yeah, there’s so much there’s so much of that real estate in your brain that like you said, your hands and your feet that all connected once you just start lighting up those receptors in your brain, I guess it’s more than just movement right? It’s more than just gaining muscle and gaining strength is it’s enjoying life. It’s like your your feet touch hot sand or cold water or something you get this rush of emotion or energy or thoughts and, and memories, right of certain things you’ve experienced and the more we’re able to experience those things or at least allow for that experience. I feel like it’s we get out of just trying To solve for pain, it’s much more of experiencing life row for what it is in its entirety.

Asher
Yeah, in HD, and there actually is really good. There are really cool studies as cool studies with the kind of old people and outside most of it kind of rehabilitating cognitive function, just from being barefoot and with kids in classrooms, where it kind of improves cognitive function and learning and concentration, and all that sort of stuff. It hasn’t been done yet, but it’s one of the ones we want to do, because obviously, we’re talking about the benefits into movement. And it’s quite a big leap for people that is like a right, your feet need to be strong, and it’s connected here and there and then you move well, you know, it’s quite a big kind of investment into and leap of faith for so to speak. But it’d be a it’s a wonderful study that hasn’t happened yet. But you know, you know, in a world where we’re all putting magic powders and an herbal bits and bobs in our coffee to kind of make us think think smarter and kind of come up with better ideas. You know, when, when, when, when the when the penny drops, that just being barefoot kind of, you know, improves Blake brain plasticity and, and stimulates creative minds, then. You know, I could see everybody rushing to the store.

CJ
I love it, man. I got a question. Have you ever looked into like, the practice for grounding or earthing?

Asher
It’s a brilliant question that and it is one that came up in a recent podcast I had actually, with Gabby Reese, I don’t know if you know her. She’s right. Yeah. And she brought that up too, as well. And we, we all we fundamentally believe in it all. And grounding. You know, grounding is basically the premise that you’re, as you know that your body is a battery and right down to a cellular level, that kind of positive negative charge charge needs to be just so to know whether you got sick cells or healthy cells, and it ultimately reduces anxiety stimulate kind of regenerative healing, and all of that sort of good stuff. But we haven’t so you need to make the shoes conductive.

CJ
Metal metal metal piece site, whether it’s mining or something.

Asher
Yeah, you can do it in your in your garage with a little kind of copper button. No more sophisticated ways to do it. We actually haven’t we’ve, we’ve been fooling around with it. To be honest, we haven’t gone down that route commercially, for two reasons. One is, one is there still is some kind of slightly pokey science around it. So it has to have a kind of, it’s a challenging big second message when going back to the earlier point of just going up against the against big shoe with with barefoot is big enough one as it is, but we’re looking at it. And you know, I think it’s safe to say you’re probably going to see a little bit of grounding technology kind of arriving issues in the next couple of years.

CJ
That’s sweet man. Yeah, it seems like it’s on the rise just we were in such a non conductive surfaces, right stuff that is insulating us and a lot of times it is that that soul in the shoe or the sock or there are rubber floors and it’s cool that you guys are looking into that and dive in deeper because it is it’s a little woowoo for people we’re on we’re on the earth all day, all day long every day. And it was a time where we were sleeping on the ground and touching the ground with our our feet. So that’s your admin thread.

Asher
Well yeah, you can do you can you can get ground as you know, right, you can get the grounding sheets for your bed because you know, back to the earlier point you don’t need to be grounded all day to get your get the benefit so you can get one on your bed you can also get the conductive mats work for your standing desk. And as long as you’re getting 30 I think they say it’s around 30 minutes a day. Just to kind of balance everything out then there’s a lot of people that swear by the the effects and there’s there’s there’s compelling science around it too.

CJ
Yeah, see a lot of research I’ve just especially with like rheumatoid arthritis, and especially in like the feet and in the hands, just applying that, that groundedness that negative charge to release it. So I’m looking forward to seeing where you guys go with that in the

Asher
future. We’ll keep you in the loop.

CJ
What’s what’s vivos future look like? What are you guys stoked about what’s what’s building? What’s kind of the next three to five years look like for you guys?

Asher
Another great question. I mean, we’re we’re on a we’re on a regenerative journey as a business so kind of so obviously the key foundational part of vivo is is around foot health. So we talk about healthy healthy people healthy footwear, healthy planet, or healthy community healthy footwear healthy business. So in I went in a world where, frankly, sustainability is not enough, you know, we need to move into a gear of kind of regeneration, like, ultimately, a net positive business for for people and planetary health. So sustainability is a big thing with us, and where the kind of Promised Land is, is to create regenerative footwear and experiences that bring us closer to nature. And our natural potential is our what. So, you know, we believe that the more time people spend in nature, bit, you know, doing natural stuff, the healthier and happier they will be, the more they value nature, and the beautiful virtuous circle of everything kind of keeping in a nice balance for generations to come. Will happen. So we’re in it, we’re in a big kind of constant transformative and growing kind of business environment of reporting on the triple bottom line, it’s not just about profit for us in the traditional sense of the word, we just became a B Corp. And the last year, so that’s rad. Yeah, that’s, you know, we’re not stopping there, we’re kind of using it as a kind of measure and a platform to make it all better, we, you know, we want to, we want to make vivo the best place in the world to work and have a thriving and vibrant kind of culture and place to work. And the final thing is, you know, it’s, it’s no secret that the world is moving in a kind of digital, very connected direction, where we’re a direct consumer business, obviously, the recent kind of year of wave after wave of COVID, it’s, it’s made that kind of even more important, so our big challenge is, how to use technology to reconnect people with, you know, their potential and the natural world. So we’re investing heavily in any kind of exciting kind of platforms and systems to, to try and deliver that.

CJ
Just letting people know, like, hey, we know what’s happening down there, right? You happen to do it. proprioceptively. And so subconsciously, that, you know, your body’s organizing all these systems together. So it’d be cool to, to see that written out on a on a, I’m imagine like a force plate or imagining like, how your foot strikes the ground or?

Asher
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So we’re, we’re putting together a really cool training kind of platform. And when I say training, I mean more like a kind of barefoot journey platform. So it’s something in your earlier point is like, right? What do people need to know if they want to go go there. So it will kind of deal with all walks of life, like, if you want to get into barefoot, it will be a place you know, we want to facilitate that and make that as easy and interesting as possible. We have, there’ll be foot scanning and sound can kind of measure your, your barefoot journey, there will be we have ForcePlates obviously, in our stores, but it’s going to become more and more important to have that in footwear to kind of effectively try and put the coach in your under your feet. And, and then, you know, we’re we’re, you know, we’re trying to make the best shoes in the world, the best trail shoes, the best walking shoes, the best lifestyle shoes, and we need to do that in a more transparent and, and ultimately kind of net positive way in the not too distant future. And so we’re investing in technology and exciting kind of innovation streams and really exciting partnerships to make things simpler and quicker. With, with less, less lack of transparency and an end of life solutions.

CJ
Yeah, it’s so rad. I’m, I’m stoked where he guys are headed. I wanted to bring up one of the things too, that I’ve seen recently, as you guys is working with algae and seaweed. Like Tell me tell me more about that you guys are putting making seaweed shoes, or Yeah,

Asher
I mean, yeah, so we have, you know, part of it’s not the only part but part of the kind of regenerative journey is materials. As I said before, like the end of life is the kind of elephant in the room. It’s kind of it doesn’t matter what you make something out of, it’s kind of how long it lasts for and what we can do with it in the end of its life. But so we we have three material kind of buckets, if you like, one is biosynthetic one is recycled to be recycled, the other one is natural. So the simple goal there is, is when you make things out of mono materials, they’re a lot easier to deal with it and of life. So that helps us kind of keeps us focused on that journey. nearby that only making or trying to but it’s not easy in every category trying to make things is the best that nature has to offer for certain products or the best when you need synthetics Manet synthetics can be recycled no in the case you’re talking about the exciting new world of bio synthetics so we did a share in 2017 company called Al Jackson the materials called Bloom which is an algae based EBA so it was it’s it’s a it’s got a front end kind of environmental benefit in that in the algae is natural in the world. In fact that’s the kind of it’s the foundation of frankly sea life as we know it is some of the first life on planet Earth but but in in non regenerative farming you have the acid runoff and it creates a it creates an environment for for algae to bloom hence the nail them so by take it by taking the the algae away you reduce the co2 into the atmosphere and you also clean up the waterway because it gets suffocated. So we made we didn’t make it but the partner that we aligned with from from our projects created this cool foam called Bloom. And we made a a kind of amphibious shoe at the time made using Bloom is it’s still a pretty low percentage of algae and like I said it’s far from perfect but it’s but but we really see it see these these as as as important kind of Lighthouse moments to kind of inspire the industry that there are new solutions, right they’re not perfect solutions, but there are new solutions and and in that way it kind of it keeps the innovation moving and hopefully the bigger guys get on board which they all are and we can we can start putting more money into cleaner materials and solutions. Yeah,

CJ
man I’m so stoked for that. That’s it’s one of the reasons why we wanted to interview you guys were a vivo just because you guys are literally on the cutting edge you guys are on that that innovation train and trying to be creating something that isn’t just a great product but it’s sustainable for the entire planet. And it’s building a community it’s got solid energy around it and you guys continue to push the boundaries and push the limits since you started there’s quite a few times I was like seeing you guys kind of like come down and come up come down come up and I was like, oh, I want vivo to make and you guys seem like you’re on a on a solid trend towards taking over this this industry.

Asher
Yeah, we almost lost our way a couple of times. It wasn’t easy kind of getting through but we’re in a we’re in a healthy place. We’ve got a long way to go we we are we are our own worst critics of our homework and we’re far from perfect. But we’ve got a really exciting challenge ahead to kind of bring bring people along with us and make our shoes and our overall business impact. as positive as we can as regenerative as we can and it keeps us getting out of bed in the morning and and doing our thing first

CJ
appreciate what you guys are doing man I know you mentioned before check you guys out on vivo barefoot.com Where can you find out the the science the research all the articles that you guys kind of bring into to your practice?

Asher
Yes Good point. If you go to discover on vivo barefoot.com You or the vivo barefoot YouTube you will see shoe spirity so we’re actually just launching we’re just doing our next sales conference in and around the science with a research study that we were part of this just come out of Liverpool University. The the result is after six months of wearing the very shoes your feet get 60% stronger and your balance improves by 40%

CJ
Holy man that’s that’s miraculous big

Asher
one. It’s a big one you’re gonna see Oh, live and direct middle of next month. So go go vivo barefoot slashy spirity or just go to go to find out more shoe spirity en vivo barefoot.com or just Google sheets per se your you will find the yellow brick road check it out. Yeah.

CJ
Super Rad man thank you so much for taking some time. I know how to funky stuff with the timing but it worked out man and really looking forward to our listeners here in this conversation and just kind of dive in deeper into not only minimalist footwear but the future of their health and community’s health and ultimately our planet’s health. Cool you guys awesome. I’ll go check out vivo.

Asher
Yeah, listen, thank you so much for your time. It was fun too. You know, tuck feet and yeah, good luck with with everything and speak to you guys soon enjoy. Enjoy the shoeless experience.

CJ
Thank you, Asha. Appreciate you.

Asher
Bye bye