Why Progressive Overload (As You Know It) Leads to Plateaus and Injuries
Michael Hughes
And welcome back to the Gymnazo podcast. I am your host, Michael Hughes, co hosted with our man of programming, our man of education and flow artist, CJ Kobliska, excited to have him here excited to be chatting about an Instagram post, and the triggering concepts that come with only taking about 100 Plus characters and throwing it into something and not having context around it. So we’re gonna dive into essentially this concept of what do people mean, when they say progressive overload? What do people mean when they talk about training and conditioning, and that you should use the same battery of exercises pretty much, relentlessly and aggressively to build fitness. And so we have a few opinions on that we want to kind of break down how we view the best workout programs, and how that consists of in all the different ways that functional training can really be applied to real life to sport, and to always have the ambition that we need to become smarter, and more adept to this training and conditioning as trainers as coaches and as athletes. So I’m excited about it, because this is going to be a deep dive
Welcome to the Gymnazo podcast where you get to peek behind the curtains of what it takes to create and run a seven figure fitness facility that ranks the top 5% of boutique fitness studios for revenue. But to be honest, that’s the least important thing about us. Founded by me, Michael Hughes Gymnazo has created an ecosystem of services that blend performance with restoration techniques, and attracts top coaches to its facility hosted by its owners, Paden and myself and our top coaches, this podcast shares our best practices on everything, from how to build a sustainable fitness business, to how to program for maximum results to how to build a hybrid training module that’s online. And in person. We have marketing secrets, movement, innovation, and breaking down trends in the industry. If you’re a fitness professional, or fitness business owner, this is where you learn how to sharpen your skills and to see maximum results. So CJ, when we kind of talked about this, Instagram posts, you know, despite what IG will lead you to believe the best workout programs will always consist of the same battery of exercises repeated relentlessly aggressively, and progress. And progressively, where’s your mind go.
CJ
That’s what I learned. That’s, that’s how I know just to do the same exercises over and over and over again. And it makes me think about all the plateaus I’ve hit. And the internal conversations I’ve had of this is it this is this is now the rest of my life. High School me is happy with just loading up the weight, putting up weight up on cleans on benchpress on squats on, you know, mild times to like running and, and sprints, you know, 40 yard dashes, but kind of like a staple of a few core exercises that I was always working to improve. And it makes me think about how boring that was. And not only boring, but limiting. And since then, opening my eyes to what progressively progressively overloading something actually means to me, not just the definition, which when I was looking at the definition of progressive overload, it just simply said, when you gradually increase the weight, frequency or number of repetitions in your strength training routine, which is a solid definition. But again, limiting.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, they’re assuming that it’s load, like a weight Maths, Physics of an actual object. But overload does not necessarily mean that what else does it mean?
CJ
I mean, what in the definition was load, but also the frequency or number of repetitions. So it’s rate its duration.
Michael Hughes
But with the emphasis on load, it’s,
CJ
the goal is always go a little bit heavier, exactly. Unless it is something you’re not doing Wait, it’s to go faster, or to do it for longer, like a pacer test or something that you just continued to see yourself improving. But now, since working with a lot of individuals from the ages of eight to eight to 80, and plus, it’s not always about just adding weight. No progressive overload is beyond just the sports realm. Progressive overload can be taken into lifestyle. And depending on what your intent is, what your lifestyle is that progressive overload goal should change or that routine should change and depending on where you’re at in your life, it’ll probably change quite often. So yeah, I think I think it’s so much more than load rate duration. It’s it’s ranges of motion. It’s it could be neurological as well. Coordination wise, you’re progressively overloading and adding pieces on top of have,
Michael Hughes
like more complexity, more coordination pieces timing, synchronous sequencing,
CJ
even adding just language to what you know, you know, a Moute emotion. Yeah. And then you exercise it and do load a cow, this is great. But there’s no deeper connection with my mind or my body. Besides that I can go heavier. So I’m always looking to progressively overload my connection to self, to what I’m actually doing as expression, can I go deeper and express myself through the exercises through even more progressively, overloading through flow, what the heck does that mean? Its flow more, its flow more naturally, it’s flow more effortlessly. It’s move freely. And I think it’s what progressive overload should really be about is getting you to a place where you find your ease, in your ultimate ease and all motion.
Michael Hughes
Load rate and duration hours, three different things. And the way that we look at overloading we have a list of 10. So we just listened to we just listen three. Now there’s more than 10. But just to simplify it. So we like to think about overloading is we can overload in environmental change, not just to speed not just a duration, or not just a mass change, we can overload the way that a sequencing is done by what part of the body moves first, that if that really complicates things for you think about, are you going to swing a golf club and drive with your hands first, you can drive with your hips first, you can drive with your thoracic spine first, or drive with your foot first, you’re gonna throw something right. So think about where the power comes from. We think we can also overload something from in what we call a triangulation, what angle is it going in? What overall height is it going in? And then how far is it going? You mentioned range of motion. And then we can also overload, obviously, just the action, we can be in a position, but change what thing we’re doing in that position. Let’s say when a stride stance, which is basically walking gait, whatever the case is, we can do so many different actions in that stride stance, and all those things can be progressively overloaded. And if you look at all those combinations of those other seven that I just added, you’re gonna get beyond what this particular comment section was talking about about 15 to 20, different drills should be done, repeatedly, aggressively, and relentlessly.
CJ
You said something, like, all the exercises changed the action in terms of position like thinking about progressively overloading a position. That’s it’s such an interesting concept. And something that is so powerful, too, because it changes the the whole, I think, vision or view the lens of what progressive overload is, which is that limiting more strength side of things, to asking you individually, every single person, your client, your your athlete, your coach yourself, what is your intent, like? What do you want to get better at? And it changes it from just this technique based, progressive overload to principle based? Like, what’s the thing about gait, the principles of gait, and how you can progressive overload those will now in every single exercise you ever come up with, if you’re intentionally aware of how you’re integrating those principles, into your positions. You’re now progressively overloading more than these 15 to 20 exercises that say, that’s the all you really need. I think it’s a good starting point. But having that intent of the principles and then integrating those that’s that in and of itself can be a progressive path.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, you’re right. And I think that’s, that’s really what it comes down to is more and more than, you know, as we’re talking about these kind of deeper dive topics. Yes, the people need to really do a good job of getting good at the fundamentals, pushing, pulling, reaching, squatting, swinging, you know, I can go into our exact list, you have to start there, for crying out loud, you got to start there, like we do a sagittal, frontal transverse plane lunge all the time, all the time, because we believe that’s a fundamental way that the human body needs to function with a stride stance, loading, transferring weight from one foot to the other foot. And that is something that is kind of a staple at Gymnazo. Or at least in our thinking in our methodology of MDMC. If you don’t know how to do a lunge, step pivot flow, then we’re gonna have some problems. So that’s our dogma, in a sense, like we all have, we all have something. But if it stays there, we got some real except we got some real limiting problems. And if a coach can’t progress a client away from that, and that client feels like the board. I think that’s another problem. It’s an imagination problem, because function outside of these gym walls is really what progressive overload needs to have into consideration. Because the fitness is not the answer, physique, is not the answer. That’s what the industry has led us to believe that it has what, what my kinesiology upbringing, quote unquote, has led me to believe that you have to test these things. If you get better at these things, you’re fit. You’re a healthy human being that’s going to function well in society. And I would say you kind of kind of
CJ
you said something about the the step pivot, and say, like, if you can’t do that, like we’re gonna have some issues. And I think that’s a it’s tough to grasp as a coach who doesn’t do like three dimensional intentional planar training because like, oh, that has its own little dogma to it, but it’s just a change in priority. And where you prioritize your foundation, your fundamentals is going to limit not only your own coaching, but your athletes success. I mean, we think about kind of an industry right now. General consensus for fitness is muscles move bones, let’s train muscles, move out and move your body. But what is it that’s turning on those muscles? Like if all we’re doing is just progressively overloading those muscles? How many times will you say progressive overload today to by the way, I’m adding progressive overload, progressive overload. But if we only focus on training those muscles, and like that aesthetic, or the technique itself, to get the best technique to lift the most and be in competition, there’s nothing wrong with that. But again, recognize the limitation that’s put on for overall function, we come from the mindset that our training should make our people better outside of the gym, not better inside the gym that comes to but better outside the gym. So of all we’re focusing on on his movements that are with a barbell, or with a specific weight for the specific technique that has been studied to improve and show that you have power and you have strength that can carry over to real life. What if there’s another layer, which there is, that helps those muscles move even better, and the bones move even better, more intentionally move their body more intentionally through space. We call that proprioception we train, we progressively overload proprioception, not to say that, it’s all a bunch of variety, like, it’s just a bunch of random stuff that we’re doing and playful stuff, which has its place as well. But it’s intentionally placed to look at the transformational zones, people be in positions and actions, they will actually do in real life, to talk about them that way. And then to, to train them in multiple directions so that their proprioceptive know how to handle and talk to the muscles in terms of speed, right, in terms of pressure, tension, in terms of
Michael Hughes
I mean, acceleration, so
CJ
there’s a lot of things proprioceptors do and where they’re at in our body, if we focus on that first, and then that is our intent going into the positions and actions we’re doing to train the muscles, the muscles become a byproduct, you’re gonna get the gains. But if you’re, again, you might not get the intent, you might not get the gains that you’ll get if you’re just progressing, progressing into more muscle more hypertrophy. Like, oh, but that person looks way more fit. It’s like, but are they having to go pick up a wheelbarrow that’s not balanced? Haven’t go kick a soccer ball, when the grass is slippery. It’s like, Yeah, but that doesn’t matter. That’s not they don’t need the strength. So yeah, there’s a lot more strength here. But it’s in terms of proprioception, how their body is able to respond to an environment, and react and respond in a way that is sound, they’re not going to get hurt, but also they’re going to enjoy themselves more because they’re more fully connected and embracing their, their training. Now, it’s not boring.
Michael Hughes
It’s not No, and it provides really what the human body truly is. It’s a it’s a very capable, spherical body, that spherical body meanings, it likes to access multi different facets. And if we trained our preceptors, not knowing that we are to do fundamental movement patterns only, and an aggressive progressive overload faction, then they’re going to get really good at those things. But that’s the problem, they’re gonna get really good at just those things. And so to bring up this whole concept, we don’t really train muscles, we train movements, and that’s not a, we didn’t invent that term. But if you’re really, really, really focused on that, then you’re going to understand and take the time to say, okay, new client, you may have some, some movement literate deficiencies, meaning their vocabulary of movement is limited. Just like four year old only can say certain sentences. When you’re 40. You better be able to speak more defined or purposeful than a four year old and I think we’re the fitness industry is we’re teaching 40 year olds how to speak and move quote unquote, like a four year old. It’s all about the fundamentals. Make sure your squat is dialed in, knees over toes, hips, back, ear in line with your ankle bone, and you’re set. And I would say wow, I mean, great job, but If you’re 40, man, it’s time to start getting away from Can you say the ABCs? And that’s where I feel that’s where our industry is. And it’s all it’s all over the place. It’s all over.
CJ
I will say that many people can’t say the ABCs in terms of movement training, no, I get it has, but I think it’s because it’s been bastardized so much in terms of like, you got to just do the fundamentals. And this is it, because then you build this one railway. When your train your movement, your body, your mind wants to move in all directions. And maybe I’m just being biased, which I am, I’d like to move in all directions. And I know that training one way I’ve been there, I’ve gotten really, really strong, I’m definitely not lifting as much weight as often as I can, or as often as I was. But I feel so much better. And I’m still capable of moving heavy weights, but it’s, there’s, there’s more paths, there’s more opportunity, there’s more potential, versus I am doing this, and I don’t do that. It’s like, Well, okay, if I, if I’ve got somebody who’s just wants to work on their cleans and work on the squats, cool. But if they also want to work on their running, if I just give them cleans and squats, they’ve got really good upper body and lower body strength, right? They’re gonna give him what they want. But then they go run and they go hurt himself when they’re doing trail run, or they’re not that good at it. They’re strong dude, struggle with Chick, whatever, right? But,
Michael Hughes
but that doesn’t mean that make them fluid doesn’t make them cross rotate their hips and their pelvis. When you clean up power, literally zero of that movement pattern. You know, I just, I want to, obviously, we’re picking apart something, you know, and with it picking apart, you can pick apart almost anything. But the point of this is to realize that wait a minute, let’s open up our eyes to the to the really to what’s really been going on. So we don’t we aren’t led by just some authority figure leading a thought process. And I’m not, you know, we’re technically authority figures, you know, we have we have a following. So I’m not saying people just follow exactly what we say either. But what I am saying is Think, think, really analyze, you’ll understand what these what these things mean. Because then you can start making decisions on your own. Meaning you’re in your trainer, you’re an athlete who has a client, who has learned the ABCs already, because you’ve taught them that and say, Okay, what’s next? What’s next? Is it just a longer workout? A longer run? Is it just a weight vest now? Is it just slapping us some North some more 10 pound weights on that bar just to progress the push them further? And further? I hope not. I really hope not. Because we’re basically just saying we only know how to tweak or progress someone in three distinct ways. And the life is not about that whatsoever. That’s just not how
CJ
almost like we’re like to machine based training. And I’m not saying just the machines we use, but we are thinking of our body and our brain like a machine when it’s so much more
Michael Hughes
it is it’s it’s like an AI. It’s a
CJ
mirror of our environment. Yeah. What do we see our environment do? It’s it’s chaotic, but it’s ordered, there should certainly be order to your training, or has to be
Michael Hughes
right. There is such thing as called progressive. And I like element, you know, this random, like every workout is different every day. Honestly, that’s the opposite end of the spectrum. And I think that’s just as limiting.
CJ
Can we break that down a little bit? Because let me say that we literally have a work different workout every single day for an entire four weeks, and then it’s repeated for three months. Yep. So you only see the same workout three times every year, the same order of exercises, the same equipment, the same loads. And so I think on the outside as a perspective of a programmer, initially, it’s like there’s so much think about six exercises per day, six days a week, so Monday through Saturday, that makes six times six, that’s 36 exercises, times four weeks, what do we got? Sorry, got 36 times 420 plus 144. But I knew that one. Yeah, we’ve been 144 exercises, 144 different exercises. Now let’s break this down even further, because there’s not 144 Completely different exercises. Although they have some similarities. They have some quite a lot of cities. There’s a lot of similarities. It’s based off of the fundamental movements, like you mentioned earlier. It’s a lunge. There’s squats, there’s pushes, there’s poles, there’s reaches, there’s lifts, there’s locomotion, in this further, further motion, those eight will come up in every single workout. So then, well, there’s a lot of variety of every single one of those you can lunge in different ways. And I promise you it’s infinite. I’ve tried to count it’s beyond our ability to count that make it no you can only lunge forward, backwards, sideways and rotationally So the pure Well, II that’s yeah. And then we extrapolate further at what range of motion? Are you doing it onto a box off a box onto a wedge onto something, right?
Michael Hughes
Just that those those different, those different tweaks that we were talking about
CJ
load rate duration, you can put a viper in your hands Powerpak in your hands, you put a right person in your hands, whatever you want. So there’s so many different options. So where do you start as a programmer, as a coach, you saying, well, holy shit, Pandora’s Box has just been opened, we’re going to do it all. Because that’s where I was too, right? There’s like too much variety. But you got to you got to kind of set the stage of what that’s going to look like in terms of what’s the intent for this month are what’s the intent for this quarter, which is like the micro and mesocycles and Mike macrocycles, right, like
Michael Hughes
surrounded upon that demographic for group training or the individual for one on one training
CJ
totally. And being able to then relay this to your athlete to understand where to do this different stuff today. It’s like, we’re gonna work on lunches all your long are going to work on squats all year long, we’re going to work on presses on poles on locomotion for the motion reaches and lifts. There’s certain kinds of lifts, we want to improve more traditional stuff, kind of the teddy bears the hugs that people like, I really like doing cleans and we like doing snatches, I want to do my swings. It’s like, yeah, those are super important and fun drills. But let’s not get stuck in the muck of just doing those things over. And over and over again, though, you will get better at them, your form will clean up, there will be a point where you hit a plateau and you can not go heavier, anything novel, you start and then keep practicing, your gains are gonna go through the roof, right, you’ve never done a rotational lunge before bodyweight, that’s off balance. Two weeks later, you throw a 20 pound weight in there. Two weeks later, you’re now 50 pounds. And then a couple months you like I’m throwing a barbell on the back of my shoulders. And people look at me funny because I’m doing a rotational lunge, saying I’m gonna they’re gonna hurt myself, I’m gonna hurt myself. You’ve been progressively overloading that mobile range for a while now. So if you go in with the intent that, okay, you have these 15 to 20 basic exercises, or drills or techniques, how can you get even further along your progressive overload scale of how you can progress it. And again, that’s, that’s what we pose, I think, to not only our team, and athletes, but to every single trainer out there, that’s how you level up your athletes not just become faster and stronger, but to become better movers to become more embodied, to have more control, not only physically, but now mentally, and emotionally because they’re all connected, we’ve got to think about these other layers of human nature that’s beyond just the muscle heads, like just beyond looking good. There’s a lot of byproducts that come with going to those deeper Critical Thinking layers of how we can overload the system. Right.
Michael Hughes
And that’s, and that’s a big factor. Because if you can start to understand those different growth S curves, so not to get too too cretinous. But basically all gains are an S curve. If you if you ever, we’ve all looked at an S curve, right? The bit, the beginning of the curve is a slow, long duration, very slow growth, it goes right to the x axis pretty far y axis is up x axis is left, left and right. And then finally, as you start to understand the technique, then as you said, that’s when that growth happens, it’s a sharp, climb up that Y axis. And then it starts to level off, it starts to go back to flat curve again. And that’s where you met the potential of your bodies moving, you can only gloat so far. Right? You don’t look, the human body has its physical limitations. And the cool thing is, we’re always pushing them, it’s awesome. When the four minute mile is broke, guess what? We started crushing it. But it’s still been, it’s still on that slow growth curve. We’re not crushing the Three Mile, we’re not crossing the two mile, right, that would be progressive. So if you can start to throw in more S curve growth points, as you were describing, with taking that lunge, that forward lunge, but adding a rotation, same side, that means spinning to the same side of labor that’s in front of you. What about spin to the opposite side? That’s a, that’s a massively different feel.
CJ
And it’s a whole different movement, technically, right? It takes the same position or some kind of action, but you just completely changed the conversation with gravity
Michael Hughes
and probe receptors and you’re feel and you’re even the intent could change. So it’s really, this is what really we wanted to bring up. Is that Is that fair? Don’t, don’t be limited in your scope. Don’t be limited in how you think about human movement, that these 1520 drills are what you got to do, and like, gosh, I just gotta be boring. That’s what it said, I’m going to be able to live dude, I’m going to be good. I’m going to be a good trainer. Because I’m doing the same stuff. I’m really giving them the it’s like three square meals, I’m just giving them three square square meals. That athlete will eventually leave, which is going to happen or they’re going to be so disciplined in their routine, that that’s what keeps them there because it’s the discipline that keeps them there. Life is about variety with IX with this mindset that get good at something before to get something better at something else. We’re not good multitaskers we’ve known that for a long time. So don’t go too crazy in your variety. But if you don’t add enough variety, you’re gonna start tearing up the ligaments tearing up joints, tearing up your own mindset, because it just gets boring. movement should not be boring. ever go to a park for crying out loud. I bet there’s more than 15 or 20 moves that you’re going to do
CJ
find a tree, find a
Michael Hughes
tree for ground? Seriously,
CJ
surgery will teach you a lot. What are the things I could do with this tree? If is all I had in life? How could I progressively overload it? Don’t just go sit and look at the tree and squat. I mean, actually, you could that could be a good meditation. Yeah, stare at this tree and squat and you can squat anymore. You said some isn’t something that I had a visual of waking up in the morning and saying I’m going to be boring today? Wouldn’t be boring. Yeah. Implementing myself. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t work.
Michael Hughes
No, no, it’s quite the opposite of that. And I woke up this morning, and I tried to wake up every single morning and say this little mantra quote, and I just threw that into my mindset as well, like, yeah, that doesn’t inspire me to get to get gone. But back to the point that the point is, is that we have a gift of movement. And as a trainer, it is our job to unlock the potential of the physicality of the mentality. And even as of the soulfulness of that athlete. You know, how you do that, obviously, dramatically changes. But it’s really important, it’s really important that we can a define what people mean, we can look at people’s context and say, hey, you know what, that all right, right on, that’s cool. Post cool. But I’m not going to be limited by by that thought process. Because we’re talking about physics here. We’re talking about the Infinites of movement potential. We have to progress this industry, we have to take our knowledge. And and basically Software Download our our hardware is pretty much consistent, it’s consistent. The human hardware does not get upgrades like a computer does. We progress as on an evolutionary process extremely slow, of the mammals extremely slow. But what we can get updates on is our software, could we have not reached the limit of our potential. And I believe I feel it is my it is my way of thinking that since about the 1970s, all the way to about one 2000, the fitness industry plateaued. It was about physique building, that was the massive focus. Jane Fonda did a pretty good job about pushing us to more movement. But even that hit a massive, let’s just all do steps, let’s all spin on a bike, let’s all just do the same power class with the same barbell. And the same moves, basically was infiltrated by that way of thinking. Now we have boutique fitness out there, which are starting to specialize in certain ways of doing things great. I broke it up a little bit. But now we’re in a new iteration called the movement trainer. And that’s where we have flows. Now. Now that the, you know, all these cool little things called a rope, or a mace, and even a viper are not really brand new things. They just been iterated in a way to understand that wait a minute, I don’t think a barbell should be seven feet long or eight feet long, whatever the case is be 44 or 45 pounds, or whatever the case is. They should be more diverse and more exciting. I don’t think a weight shouldn’t be just be loaded equally on both sides. Oh, here comes the mace. I don’t think we should just take a rope and just jump over it. Maybe there’s other things that we can do with it. Why don’t think a powerup or a dumbbell should just be for cleaning and flying. Shoulder flies, I think be used for a lot other things. And that’s where I am really excited about what these things happen. Yes, we can’t play the game of just throw something on the wall like spaghetti and hope it sticks. That’s not programming.
CJ
But sometimes it does stick like
Michael Hughes
that. Exactly. It’s true, but not for every workout. But at the same time, we can’t just say oh, make sure your knees are over your toes all the time. Like though to me though, that’s like the spectrum. And if you’re on either side of that spectrum, you’re not a great coach. I’m just gonna say it. You’re not. You’re a coach doesn’t mean you’re a great coach.
CJ
always and never bad words.
Michael Hughes
I would I agree.
CJ
We would say isn’t my house. What did you say to me? Oh, let’s do this. No, I I swear.
Michael Hughes
So, but if you are doing those things, then understand that you have your own S curve in your own education, your own mind, and you may I’m beyond plateau, there’s another S curve out there. And we’re trying to define it. We didn’t invent it. We’re just defining it. And we’re putting it out there so people can understand that what we learned in our books in, in our typical exercise science classes, what we’re learning from our basic certification, you know, CPT is what are the cases, what we’re learning for even the more advanced CSCs is, or even the highly advanced $100,000.03 year physical therapy schools, that’s not all that’s out there. I think that’s what really we’re trying to say. But just because you have XYZ doesn’t mean you understand the full ship, on the hall and all and all the directions. And so if you’re saying this is the answer, you say, wait a minute, this is an answer. What other answers are there out there? And that’s the software stuff, though, I’m really, really trying to just kind of open the mind to. So what that being said was that was it.
CJ
I just think in like examples of how we individually progressively overload, not just in terms of fitness, but in in life. How do we adapt, if we don’t adapt, we die. If we don’t adapt, we don’t grow. So that’s how we grow. And I was just reflecting, as you’re saying, saying those things about the industry and kind of where we’re going as a movement trainer, that life is movement. So there’s always an opportunity to progress. And it’s easy to get caught up in trying to progress progress progress with like I have to be on the next level up. But it’s also it’s as much vertical as it is horizontal, in terms of adaptation and growth and progressing. So I was thinking of just recently, this past since the pandemic picking up a kettlebell and learning to flow with it and juggle it and being inspired by a lot of people through Instagram and see like, man, like, I don’t even know what they’re thrown. But that’s definitely heavier than mine, or, you know, all these things. And it’s like there’s there’s movements techniques, to progress with every piece of equipment with every intent. And so like for me with, with kettlebell juggling, I started with a 10 kilogram pink, bright pink kettlebell, love that thing. And just started swinging it and getting a feel for it. And thinking back it was just the depth of feel I have now have that kettlebell in my hand doesn’t just grab the kettlebell, it holds the kettlebell it, the kettlebell holds me, you know, like that, that in itself is a progression, that I don’t feel vulnerable, as vulnerable as when I first started like that kettlebells metal, like you’re thinking hurt me, if I drop it on my toes. It’s like a workout barefoot, become aware of it, swing it around and recognize the feel of that metal having momentum, and you putting momentum into it versus gravity, pulling momentum into it. And again, there’s depth that not everybody wants to explore, but or has to explore,
Michael Hughes
or do you have to explore it because it’s called Taking your trashcan up on the curb? There’s momentum, there’s depth, there’s pulling you down that apron ramp, right?
CJ
Pull me back into my experience, like the progressive overload of the thing, or that I was swinging at the kettlebell. Now I have when I am doing the dishes, like I grab a dish, and I hold it differently. I throw that thing into the dishwasher and just land perfectly after a triple flip into the first rack. Right? Not really, but that’s next. That’s what I’m progressively overloading to really get out of bed, I get out of bed differently. And it’s like, these things have nonspecific gains, as long as we can explore the depth while we’re training him. I spoke with Leo savage. And one thing he said is, is that yes, it is that lifting is expression. It’s not any kind of lifters, expression, anything you do is expression. And we’re always expressing it. But we’re not always connected with that expression. And I’m wanting to go into those deeper layers and journal about these things just to find more meaning in my experience that’s already there. And so it’s bringing that into every single exercise you do, I think it’s a great way to step away from all these negative thought forms and feedback loops that we’ve, as the society kind of pulled ourselves into of like, I have to do this I’m not strong enough and I need to do more and like that’s almost like why we are progressively overloading just weight, speed and duration or endurance is because we’re stepping away from the real. The real overload, which is just connect more with this present moment of your expression of how you’re doing it. Why you’re doing it. What you’re doing. Yeah, that’s kind of where my mind goes on that. Oh, yeah. A little tangent but yeah,
Michael Hughes
well, and that’s good. Because for a trainer listen to that be like Oh, great. CJ really understood and heard you what does that mean? And that’s why in the fitness industry is so awesome because you can visually see it right? You know, we’re such visual people I believe, visual kinesthetic people as movement trainers, we need to see it and we need to replicate it. and maybe even just copy it just for the sake of our learning, and then we can grow from there. But what that means is that, you know, think about, I mean, when I first started thinking about multi directional three dimensional gbgv, more specific movement patterns, and someone said to me, like, when was the last time that you did a plank, and just didn’t did anything, but just hold that plank? And I’m like, that’s what a plank is. That was my thoughts. I was like, What do you mean? That’s, that’s what a plank is. That’s the definition of a plank. And this lady, Lisa is name. She says, no, that’s just what you know of a plank. All right, I’m intrigued. He says, a plank is a position. But that doesn’t mean that position is static. I was like, Oh, all right. So like, What do you mean? Like, dive deeper says, Well, how many movements do you have possible? And I was like, like, What do you mean? Like a lot said, well just think about a compass. What are the real three? What’s the three things that a compass can tell? You? will tell us what North is it tells where South is. That’s pretty simple. Because we east and west is that simple. But the compass also spins, guys, you spin. So it can tell you a angulation change a rotational change. I was like, Oh, okay. Because now go to tell me she didn’t show me things. Now go do a plank, a movement plank with those three things in mind. And I literally went down to my elbows on the blue pads at Kenny club Fitness here in San Luis Obispo, 12 years ago. And I said north south, so actually rocked on to my forearms, rocked back onto my toes. I was like, okay, that’s kind of forded back, I was like, Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, my hips can go up towards the ceiling and then down towards the floor, that’s also kind of for them back to as well. So if I took that into consideration, then I shifted to one elbow, low to form lower than the other elbow load and the corresponding tone and foot. So that’s kind of side to side, but then actually drove my pelvis literally towards the wall, and then towards the open space. Okay, that’s kind of side to side. It’s like, what’s the spin and I did this funky little humping the floor move like a big old orbital, like just going for it? You know, it’s like, oh, that’s kind of like rotation. But then I didn’t do that I stuck in place and pivoted like like on an axis. Like, oh, that’s kind of spinning, too. But that wasn’t it. That was just the basics of it. I could have crawled forward. That’s still a plank. It’s a crawling plank. I can literally rolled, like a breakdance move, that would have been a rotating crawling plank. So that you know, as you start to understand that, wait a minute, what do I overload? What do I progressively overload? All of it. How do I start with the basics? When does it end? It doesn’t. It ends when the intent of that goal is reached. That’s when it ends.
CJ
Wow, that was the intent of this podcast was there’s nothing more than that was beautiful. That is the process of discovery. And that is I feel like that’s how weightlifting started. And that’s, that’s where all the straw men and stuff. It’s like, how many ways can I lift this thing? What’s the most awkward way I can lift this what’s the most awkward weight I could lift? And then in that became strong in all directions. And then we did a lot of science and break down and reductionist and said, Okay, these are the drills that we need to make. But these drills we studied, right, these are the drills that were actually used to create the science and the philosophy of this practice, strength training. What went into developing strength training, a lot of funky ass positions. A lot of heavy caseloads moving quickly. I mean, it probably looked ridiculous. Something like what we’re doing right now. Yeah, I would say so. But it sounds ridiculous anymore. It just makes sense.
Michael Hughes
To me, like, like I said, I think there was a plateau in the industry from the 70s to the 2000s a plateau that wasn’t progressive. That was like, let’s just get really good at this one thing who invented the barbell? Why was that a good idea? I’m just a question. We’re just you know, we should be able to question things without seeing like, Oh, you don’t like it? I’m just asking you a question. When was it a good idea to lay down on a bench and push that bar away from you? When is it a good idea to throw that on your back and say this is how you do it this is the standard of fitness and strength a power clean in a snatch like those actually make a lot of sense. That’s the same those make a Olympic lifting, even a deadlift, clean snatch posture make a lot of sense so we
CJ
get really good at that. It takes aggressive consistency and boring work of just doing that over and over again. You’re gonna be at the highest level of it right but no, no brings me the highest Have no terms of how much we eat,
Michael Hughes
because someone took a big branch and needed to throw it over a fence, whatever, even fences back then some rock wall or down into a ravine. And they did that. But what if we make it completely symmetrical? And what have you make the you know, just so perfect? The
CJ
question was, that sounds unnatural. Why would we do that? We flip the switch and complete polar opposite.
Michael Hughes
Exactly. But then science got into it. And how does science really do? Well? How does scuze me? How does? How does Journal of scientific data get really well, they need control parameters that are consistent. And life’s not consistent. It’s never consistent.
CJ
Ever that word? Never.
Michael Hughes
It’s not. I can do that, though. Right?
CJ
I think it’s never always consistent. Or it’s always never considered, it’s always
Michael Hughes
never consistent. Yeah. There are a lot of consistencies. But every day is different every day is in fact, the part that actually ruins the human body the most is too much consistency. Always never too much consistency. Yeah, for sure. It is. That’s it. That’s that’s what
CJ
happened. I think the moral of story is be consistent, but be consistently exploring.
Michael Hughes
And get good at something. And once you’re good at it, move on, move on,
CJ
and then come back to it. Like, you know, like, recognize where you’re at, like, use those plateaus as well as like, Man, I’m not getting as strong as I once was like, No, you are stronger than you once were. Now, where you’re going to keep growing in strength. I think the kind of takeaway message would be when you recognize that no, try something new. Maybe go scroll on Instagram, and look at some cool exercises. Like that’s interesting. But don’t just do it to do it. Do it to explore to it to understand, where’s your body at in reference to what it can do. If somebody else’s body can do something, the body can do something. But it may be different for where you’re at in your life in which maybe you see a contortionist do something with crazy load on their back and do some splits, maybe don’t just go right for it. Consider your level, obviously, disclaimer here. But we can all use each other as like reflectors as a mirror to show each other what’s capable, and not get too caught up in like I have to progress. In this one route. There’s so many routes
Michael Hughes
15 to 20 routes, you’re going to if we write six exercises per worker, that’s just how we do it for our group training. We’re gonna get through that in three days.
CJ
You using 15 different exercises as foundations. Oh, I don’t know what this 15 Or that what
Michael Hughes
that was. But it doesn’t matter. Yeah, as we definitely have 1520 foundational thought processes about a particular movement position action. But uh, yeah, I want to go back to this last point. Again, you know, last point is that the human body breaks down the most rapid the quickest, with overload of the same. It’s you look at you look at everything that has a shelf life in our mechanical world, the more it does that repeat that repetitive thing over and over again, the sooner breaks. In examples,
CJ
yeah, I’m just thinking, like, somebody comes up to me, like, Oh, we’re doing this push up and squat challenge at work. Progressively goes like, I would do 200 a day. And then it turns into, like, the end of the month, like we’re doing 500. Like, it was like, something crazy, like 500 in a couple days or something like that. And guess what happened the next week, knees back, shoulders, and k one argument could be that we were squatting wrong or pushing pushing up wrong. I don’t think that’s the case, we can all push up in squat. It’s, we’re doing too much of one thing. They’re not giving our body a chance to rest and not giving a variety, like go do a push up challenge. Go do a squat challenge. But do SFT squats, do SFT push ups, maybe change your ranges of motion with them? Maybe when you’re getting pretty sore one day go up a little bit onto a box. And so you’re not getting a push up? Is this at a squat? Is this? Like you could do so much more squats and push ups and guess what happens at the end of the month? I feel so much stronger. I’m not in pain. I guarantee it. Yeah, let’s set up a game plan to make it happen.
Michael Hughes
And this goes to the point of you know, Gary Gray loves the story. Sharing that, you know he was hired by some special forces in the US military. We’re talking to criminally Krim gear doesn’t like to boast but almost form. It was the best of the best. And he says I need to go in there and see what you guys have you guys are training. And they said they do this a lot. Push ups, pull ups, sit ups, and run for things. Those are amazing, phenomenal drills. But that’s all they did. And they had labeled tears. their shoulders were blown out. They had massively poor knees and the lower backs were hurting. Now go ahead and jump out of a plane with 40 pounds of gear on your on your back. Go do an amazingly complex over water, hills terrain mud and you come back and you say that you’re feeling good. No way. If my lower back certain I’m in a bad mood, and I gotta go Trek 26 Miles save someone’s life or go do some nasty stuff and come back. That’s going to be affecting me. Anyways, the US military figured this sucker out and then said we need to figure it out and different. And guess what Gary Gray he did. He says, change it up, guys. That’s all he said. And he actually went in this is a cool, cool story. He says, I’m going to challenge you guys. He was in his 40s at the time says I’m gonna go challenge you, you guys maybe early 50s to a cone drill. And he’s basically like a star control and a center. Go ahead, set north go head angles, edited. And he beat him. He beat these ultra elite. military guys beat them. And they were so pissed. Like, who’s this guy coming out of there. But guess what happened a few weeks later? They beat Gary. Why progressive overload and multi different dimensional movement patterns that they trained on? And guess what happened to their injury rate it went down.
CJ
Just make sense. Just kind of it’s kind of cool. Just kind of cool.
Michael Hughes
Well, that was a cool topic. I appreciate your time. Any closing thoughts before we wrap this thing up?
CJ
Yeah, man, go chase PRs but chase all the PRs. Like, it’s good Chase prs?
Michael Hughes
I think we should make a shirt PR chaser tune.
CJ
I mean, I’ve been getting PRs for the past like seven years. I got I think it’s like a PR and like 600 different exercises. Sort of I have even read a bit revisited because I’ve heard so good.
Michael Hughes
Jason PRs on how to compass on the back.
CJ
Oh, that’d be sick. Yeah, all right. It’s gonna happen your first Okay. Chasin’ your energy.
Michael Hughes
Yep. Check out the gymnazo.edu website for more shirts and beanies in the near future. Peace take care. Pay off. Hope you guys enjoyed today’s episode. And if you did, please share with your fitness obsessed friends and peers who are also navigating this world of fitness and trying to succeed the trends and misinformation. As you guys can see, this podcast is basically a masterclass for trainers wanting to level up in their coaching skills, and their fitness business model. We launched this in 2020. Because you and your fitness tribe deserve to see an unfiltered look at all the aspects of what it takes to stand out as a next generation coach, and build a successful fitness business. So share it far and wide. And please, when you do do me a favor, take a screenshot of this screen and share it to your social media accounts and use the hashtag Gymnazo podcast that’s hashtag Gymnazo podcast that way we can see you and share your posts with our audience. And finally, when you’re ready to go to the next level as a coach, or in your business, and to reach more people, please go check out gymnazoedu.com. We have put together the best 90 Day coaching program on the market for trainers wanting to become a masterful practitioner and build a business that gives them the freedom and impact. So let us help you do just that. We have online training and one on one coaching to guide you through a whole 90 Day certification. We even get you training our clients live because it’s always better to work out your kinks on someone else’s clients than yours. But we promise you this, your clients will be blown away by the transformation our program will help you make you will be masterful at a whole new level. And part of it an incredible community of coaches worldwide, taking their skills to the next level. So if you thought today’s episode had some fire to it, and inspires you to take action, wait until you see what we deliver on this program. So just go to gymnazoedu.com. And we’ll see you on the other side. Remember that turning your passion for fitness into transformation and sustainable business is critical to reaching the people and lads you were put on earth to help it matters and truly can make an impact in other people’s lives. So hope you do that. Keep sharing your passion and I will talk to you soon.
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